It's Soooooo Hard to Slow Down

[OldSchool+]

wound and wound we go.

"THE ON TRACK PRODUCT AND RACING IN GENERAL IS AWESOME [at Waterford in spite of a myriad of mgmt. related problems]!"-Pheel (Floridian pronunciation)

That is what we are missing down heah and what the thread is about. Make it more affordable for the racers, get more cars, get more fans.

Ironically, there has been a minimum of hard input regarding "affordable" late model/modified engines from the very folks that we are trying to save money...

[scottgarrity07]

Dammit, Phil. You had to bring up the Speedbowl toilets. Just when my day was going so well. Oh, the horror. You just can't "unsee" something like that.....

[Phil Jacques]

wound and wound we go.

"THE ON TRACK PRODUCT AND RACING IN GENERAL IS AWESOME [at Waterford in spite of a myriad of mgmt. related problems]!"-Pheel (Floridian pronunciation)

That is what we are missing down heah and what the thread is about. Make it more affordable for the racers, get more cars, get more fans.

Ironically, there has been a minimum of hard input regarding "affordable" late model/modified engines from the very folks that we are trying to save money...

Scott and I have clearly outlined many times ways to not only help control costs but get the fans to the track. Getting the fans there starts with getting the fields full. Minimizing the number of classes spreading the car count thin is part of that, the other part is making it more affordable week to week and not being a liberal douche about it because it doesn't work for your mindset. I love how people want to say "you're up nawth what do you know" to me, but then again, we have full stands and 20-30 car fields, so... what do I know, right? Once you get a product worth watching, you gotta get the fans there. Tracks need to get off Karnac and Facebook and explore different avenues. Send people out to hang some flyers, take out radio and tv ads at peak traffic times (rush hour for radio, evening for tv) and get the word out. Set up displays once in a while at local malls or establishments for a visual effect. These are ALL things every successful track here does and IT WORKS contrary to the cheap people who say it wont. Tracks need to get off their ass and spend a dollar to make 5. That's how a business is run sometimes. Spend money to make money especially in the entertainment industry. All the pieces of the puzzle are right there in front of every single track owner and promoter right now. It's ALL on the tracks to make it happen. We as racers only do what they say we can and if we can't afford to race weekly we save money for when we can. Implement a 4-2-2 tire rule, implement weekly cost savings efforts to help small time racers race more often. The big guys will still buy as much to get as much advantage as they can regardless of the rule. Bringing in this Hoosier 750 tire is a HUGE step. You already are seeing the effects of it with two races in a row with 19 cars in the Sportsman division. Find ways for racers to be able to race more on their dime, and they will. And when they do, more fans will start to come because they see better on track product and tracks will be able to afford to do more and bigger things for the fans and give them better bang for their buck etc etc etc. It all flows together. I've watched it for years up here. I don't sit here and share what I see (only to have Scott agree as he has seen the same thing and lives the daily life of a FL racer) because I like to hear myself talk. I say this stuff cause I give a fuck about Florida and want to see you guys grow and thrive.

I'm a brash and rough sob, I speak how it comes into my head. Scott is more low key but echoes my sentiments 9 times out of 10. Might be time to start really paying attention to what we do up here because it works, and what goes on down there really doesn't Sorry. That's the truth.

[Phil Jacques]

Dammit, Phil. You had to bring up the Speedbowl toilets. Just when my day was going so well. Oh, the horror. You just can't "unsee" something like that.....

As of this week, the Speedbowl toilets are GONE... FLATTENED... ABOLISHED!!! They are re-doing everything in regards to that COMPLETELY from scratch! When you come up this summer, it will be like the taj-mahal of bathrooms at a racetrack haha!!!

[jacko241]

Joe can correct me on this, but the SCCA doesn't have a rule preventing computer modification to my knowledge. The general idea here is to keep cost down in the low divisions and by introducing EFI it can bring costs way up unless they police it extremely strictly. I just don't think the tracks are going to want to go through the extra hassle. You need to remember, the current OBDII computer systems are easy plug and play stuff, but the majority of the cars out there will be older OBDI and older style systems which are not plug and play to read that simply.

I am going to strongly disagree that lower divisions won't bring people to the track. What brings the majority of people in, is entertainment. There are a lot of people just to see cars running side by side making contact and smell the burning fuel and tires. Casual fans like that can't tell you what division they are watching, they just know they are entertained by a good on track product. THAT sir, is the key. A good product, no matter if it's Champ Karts or Pro Stocks, if the product sucks, you aren't getting fans. Each division has it's niche group of fans, but they are the minority rather than the majority. It takes EVERY division to make a successful program. If you only cater to one group, it will fail EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You are correct Phil, no way would they be able to police it anyway.

[bowlegs]

Wow, so pro lates and super lates, only difference is open/built versus crate. So how much HP does the typical SLM crank out?

The Chevy 525 crate is putting out 525hp and cost 7k from Summit. It seems like if that is in the same ball park as SLM, then the PLM could run 525's and compete.

Although I'm sure this has been brought up before.. But damn you'd be looking at 20+ car fields. I read the 525 has won some dirt SLM races in Georgia.

[Imhere]

A Super Spec engine puts out around 610-620hp . They cost just over $18000 brand new and are 5-6000 to freshen. Will go 3-5000 laps depending on track and driver. A lot of money but a far cry from the 40-50,000 the built motors would cost. your not going to keep up with a crate motor at the big tracks, but the little bull rings they choke the motor down anyway so wouldn't be bad there. They need to combine Limited Late models Pro late models and supers into one show, ad weight as needed to make them equal and you would have a hell of a show. it was working a few years ago till the promoters out smarted themselves

[Phil Jacques]

If guys were willing to make some small compromises with weight or other little things here and there, SLM and PLM could very easily run together competitively. They are not very far off at the smaller tracks. As I mentioned before, GSPSS and Seekonk Speedway here in New England runs Crate and Spec engine rules very similar to PLM and SLM competitively. Seekonk regularly has 600+ hp Supers competing against 604 crate cam change cars competitively and the crates win out just as much as the big open motors. It's all in if they are willing to make the attempt to change. It HAS been done in FL before and it worked fine but for whatever reason they went away from it. I do know a PLM ran with Supers at I believe it was A-Dale recently and ran top 5 without a problem recently. It can work you just have to want it to work. Here, GSPSS runs on tracks from 1/4 mile up to 5/8 mile. It works on all size tracks so it can be done at a place like New Smyrna just as easily as it can be done at Showtime or Auburndale it just takes a little compromise from the SLM guys in some small and inexpensive areas.

[bowlegs]

With SLM series finally getting on the same page (Arca, cra, southern super, the new hooters pro cup guys) I wouldn't change a thing with the class. But it'd be pretty cool to do something to get PLM to be competitive.

[Matt Albee]

Well, it sounds like the solution for a failing Florida short track is to run Wednesday nights, run V8 bombers, 4 cylinders, Legends, and Bandoleros. I'm a little skeptical, the Legends and Bandoleros were run at OSW and, to put it mildly, didn't pack the stands. But if it packs Waterford, then there's no reason it won't pack OSW. Or Putnam. Or Lake City. Or Bronson. Or NSS.
The tracks won't drop the number of classes as long as they're making money off of the back gate. Making money at the back gate is the only reason the track owners keep inventing more classes.
Super Lates and Pro Lates will never be combined. The Pro Late guys refuse to bring their cars more into line with the Super Lates, even if it's for the good of racing in general. And the Super Lates aren't going to abandon the parts and pieces they have, just so the Pro Lates can catch up, even if it's for the good of racing in general. Believe me, it's been debated ad nauseum.
It sounds like what we might want to do is send the Waterford management and PR team to Florida to put on some seminars though. They seem to have it going on.

[OldSchool+]

"...the Super Lates aren't going to abandon the parts and pieces they have, just so the Pro Lates can catch up, even if it's for the good of racing in general."-Matt

A good point. If you were a 40k motor owner, why add a bunch of lead so the 10-20K guys can keep up, and/or crash you?

Otherwise, a good point or two in there...re:lower classes. They are fun at st pete but pretty much a bore everywhere else. 40 bandaleros or 40 4cylinder hobby stocks are not going to get me out of the house.

Nor do I see a weeknight working. I think it would be tough for a big, well advertised show. For somewhere like bithlo, I don't see it happening.

But, IT'S ALL A MOOT POINT, unless a promoter actually uses some of these ideas. Sadly, there has not been as much expected specific motor-limiting thoughts as I had hoped.

Soooooo, even if a promoter was interested, the ideas are not here.

No biggie. I suppose it "says" the racers are happy with the status quo.

[Phil Jacques]

Well, it sounds like the solution for a failing Florida short track is to run Wednesday nights, run V8 bombers, 4 cylinders, Legends, and Bandoleros. I'm a little skeptical, the Legends and Bandoleros were run at OSW and, to put it mildly, didn't pack the stands. But if it packs Waterford, then there's no reason it won't pack OSW. Or Putnam. Or Lake City. Or Bronson. Or NSS.
The tracks won't drop the number of classes as long as they're making money off of the back gate. Making money at the back gate is the only reason the track owners keep inventing more classes.
Super Lates and Pro Lates will never be combined. The Pro Late guys refuse to bring their cars more into line with the Super Lates, even if it's for the good of racing in general. And the Super Lates aren't going to abandon the parts and pieces they have, just so the Pro Lates can catch up, even if it's for the good of racing in general. Believe me, it's been debated ad nauseum.
It sounds like what we might want to do is send the Waterford management and PR team to Florida to put on some seminars though. They seem to have it going on.

Man you really do live in some alternative dimension don't you? Tell me, where did I ever say THAT was the solution? And how the hell did you ever come up with that. You are just pissed because no one agrees with your idiotic liberal bullshit...

Explain to me how combining classes to make one larger 20 car class and dropping the other useless designations is going to net the tracks any less money than keeping 5 divisions of 4 cars each. You must be into that common core math bullshit that all those liberal types like cause your math just doesn't make sense to me. Simply put, fans would rather see 20 cars in 1 division, than 4 cars each over 5 divisions. Ask ANY fan at any track anywhere and they will agree 100% "Making money at the back gate is the only reason track owners keep inventing more classes" Actually no, because you aren't getting any new cars, you are just spreading the other divisions thinner and thinner which in turn destroys the entertainment value. The tracks keep inventing more classes cause billy bob racer cant keep up so he cries and says he needs a different division but can not afford to change his car over etc so they just create new divisions to appease all these crybabies. I'm sorry but it can be done much more effectively by controlling fuel, tires and other weekly expenses to allow billybob to put money he is spending elsewhere into making his car more competitive.

Oh and also, SLM and PLM have been combined in the past and it DOES work. At the smaller tracks all it takes is a little weight, at the bigger tracks, all it takes is a small restrictor plate for the SLM guys. It's REALLY simple and costs pennies on the dollar for teams to do. As mentioned prior, the promoters got too big for their britches and it all backfired on them. If you had the right people and right organization doing it, it has worked in the past and it WILL work again.

Maybe what we should do is send all the Florida promoters and owners to other tracks across the northeast and across the midwest to see what is going on and why all these tracks have big car counts (even in the midwest where the economy is on par with yours) and you guys have squat.

[OldSchool+]

Carpetbagger.

[Phil Jacques]

Carpetbagger.

[Matt Albee]

Man you really do live in some alternative dimension don't you? Tell me, where did I ever say THAT was the solution? And how the hell did you ever come up with that. You are just pissed because no one agrees with your idiotic liberal bullshit...

Explain to me how combining classes to make one larger 20 car class and dropping the other useless designations is going to net the tracks any less money than keeping 5 divisions of 4 cars each. You must be into that common core math bullshit that all those liberal types like cause your math just doesn't make sense to me. Simply put, fans would rather see 20 cars in 1 division, than 4 cars each over 5 divisions. Ask ANY fan at any track anywhere and they will agree 100% "Making money at the back gate is the only reason track owners keep inventing more classes" Actually no, because you aren't getting any new cars, you are just spreading the other divisions thinner and thinner which in turn destroys the entertainment value. The tracks keep inventing more classes cause billy bob racer cant keep up so he cries and says he needs a different division but can not afford to change his car over etc so they just create new divisions to appease all these crybabies. I'm sorry but it can be done much more effectively by controlling fuel, tires and other weekly expenses to allow billybob to put money he is spending elsewhere into making his car more competitive.

Oh and also, SLM and PLM have been combined in the past and it DOES work. At the smaller tracks all it takes is a little weight, at the bigger tracks, all it takes is a small restrictor plate for the SLM guys. It's REALLY simple and costs pennies on the dollar for teams to do. As mentioned prior, the promoters got too big for their britches and it all backfired on them. If you had the right people and right organization doing it, it has worked in the past and it WILL work again.

Maybe what we should do is send all the Florida promoters and owners to other tracks across the northeast and across the midwest to see what is going on and why all these tracks have big car counts (even in the midwest where the economy is on par with yours) and you guys have squat.

So now you're saying that what "packs" Waterford won't "pack" any track in Florida. You're going to have to make up your mind. Are the demographics really that different? Seems like every third person you meet down here is from New York, so i can't see that the fan base would be that much different. If that type of show works as well as you say it does, why wouldn't the exact same show, maybe not on a Wednesday, but the exact same show, work here. But i'm sure you know best.
We are in agreement with the promoter/track owner problem in Florida. It might help if the Florida owners read sites like this one to get a better read on the fans. It looks like a couple of them do, Like Robert Hart. But then he just sends in one of his minions to fight the forum battles for him.
I also agree that the costs can be controlled, in part , by the tires and gas costs.
I have to say though, of everyone on this board, you give give out the most vibes of being a liberal. Nothing at all wrong with that of course. But you sure seem to have that thought process.