It's Soooooo Hard to Slow Down

[OldSchool+]

So...they are chasing you...?

And regardless, same same as Scott.

If the late model class was $6-8k for an engine, would you be running limited sportsman?

Do you think the late model class car count and competition would go up?

[jacko241]

I think it is really simple, cost is what is shrinking the car count, and the entertainment value is shrinking spectator counts. Kids just don't have the same interest in cars most of us had growing up.

[OldSchool+]

Jacko, Correct-O.

Particularly if there are six cars and you can text someone in between them passing the start/finish line.

[Matt Albee]

Fair enough, just curious because it seems sometimes you are on point with your theories and other times I couldn't disagree more.

One point I would like to make to counter something you mentioned. Making the lower divisions more affordable for the little guy is a good thing and the only way you are going to continue to attract new fans. I agree that in divisions like SLM and PLM, Sprints or other top tier local divisions and series, allowing the technology in is okay, because it bridges the gap between the next step, but the way it is beginning to become, and not just there but everywhere, too much of the top tier technology is seeping too far down the ladder and it needs to stop because it is making it much too expensive. There is no reason in a sportsman, shocks should cost more than 75 to 100 bux each and in Bombers/Pure Stocks/Strickly Stocks or whatever name they go by at whatever track, there is no reason to put a $4000 to $5000 built engine in some of these cars etc. Get what I mean? There is place for everything in racing, but racing is a sport that was built so EVERYONE could be involved, when you start pricing the little guy out, it becomes harder for the sport to grow and thrive. That is a problem FL is having right now. The liberal solution to everything down there is make another division and that's adding to the problem too. As I said in another post, if you simplify things, align rules and create 1 division out of 4 like divisions, it will instantly help in a lot of ways. Guys will bitch and complain but in the end, will comply and build their car to fit to continue running. We have to remember, the little guy built this sport. We have to help them continue to come in because without them it's going to continue to die a slow painful death.

I think if you read my posts, you'll see that i'm all for the racer. Always have been. I think the tracks have run their show off of the backs of the racers for years.
The money motor debate was related to super lates, pros, mods, etc. My answer was aimed at them. For the lower classes, i think that's where racing starts. I think that's where new drivers and mechanics come from. I thgink that's even where some new sponsors come from since those classes won't break a sponsor that just wants to get their feet wet. I think there have been some great suggestions on this board for increasing participation in the lower classes. Open them up to imports, fuel injection, computers, front drive, and anything else that gets people involved. The problem is though, unless the lower classes are fast and interesting, you won't get fans to buy tickets. If i have the option of driving out to Desoto for what is essentially a pure stock race featuring imports, or staying at home for free, i'm probably going to have to stay home. I felt the same way about the e-mods.
Racing for me requires speed, sound, competition, and color. A hammer and tongs fight for the lead in a pure stock race is interesting and fun to watch. But it isn't going to get me to spend the time and money to go out there only for that. Now if the tracks use their heads, they will come up with rules that incorporate newer cars and engines, fuel injection, front drive cars, imports and computers that not only look fast, but sound and go fast. I'll gladly buy a ticket to see those classes evolve.

[OldSchool+]

Well, Anderson and Rodgers are out, they generally run black and white cars.

Scott Garrity is your man. Of course, some say the red brings out the raging bull in others, but hey, it's color!

[scottgarrity07]

Well, Anderson and Rodgers are out, they generally run black and white cars.

Scott Garrity is your man. Of course, some say the red brings out the raging bull in others, but hey, it's color!

LMAO!

[Phil Jacques]

I think if you read my posts, you'll see that i'm all for the racer. Always have been. I think the tracks have run their show off of the backs of the racers for years.
The money motor debate was related to super lates, pros, mods, etc. My answer was aimed at them. For the lower classes, i think that's where racing starts. I think that's where new drivers and mechanics come from. I thgink that's even where some new sponsors come from since those classes won't break a sponsor that just wants to get their feet wet. I think there have been some great suggestions on this board for increasing participation in the lower classes. Open them up to imports, fuel injection, computers, front drive, and anything else that gets people involved. The problem is though, unless the lower classes are fast and interesting, you won't get fans to buy tickets. If i have the option of driving out to Desoto for what is essentially a pure stock race featuring imports, or staying at home for free, i'm probably going to have to stay home. I felt the same way about the e-mods.
Racing for me requires speed, sound, competition, and color. A hammer and tongs fight for the lead in a pure stock race is interesting and fun to watch. But it isn't going to get me to spend the time and money to go out there only for that. Now if the tracks use their heads, they will come up with rules that incorporate newer cars and engines, fuel injection, front drive cars, imports and computers that not only look fast, but sound and go fast. I'll gladly buy a ticket to see those classes evolve.

I read your posts. Some I will admit I think are good ideas, but there are a number of things that are good ideas on the surface but if you really start to get deeper they can pose some serious issues. One of those is allowing fuel injected cars. There is much more to it than just allowing them to run. Tech on a fuel injected car is a tricky proposition especially considering how many different makes and models are out there and how easy it really is to modify and manipulate the computers on these cars if you do a little research to advance timing, change the fuel curve etc. That all costs money and drives up the cost which absolutely goes against what you are proposing to help keep costs under control.

Regarding the money motor debate, if you are going to talk about one division, you might as well discuss them all. It's an issue in every division top to bottom. As I was discussing with Scott last night, a $1500 Jasper engine is more than suitable for a Bomber or similar class. There is no reason to be spending 4 to 5k on engines at that level. It kills the sport from the bottom up.

9 times out of 10, an average fan isn't going to be able to tell much difference between an Emod and OWM at the smaller tracks. You, having been involved, know the differences and are more in tune to the differences and that weighs on your preferences at the track, but I would bet many would agree with me, that they would rather see good hard competition, rather than super fast cars. Some of the best racing I have ever seen at some of our local tracks come from the lower divisions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eblR87rKt7g

watch this race and tell me it didn't have you on the edge of your seat...

[OldSchool+]

Like those that say NACAR "should be based on street cars to fix all their problems", methinks what is really meant here is summarized in Matt's quote as follows: " I'll gladly buy a ticket to see...classes [with imports, fuel injection, computers, front drive, and anything else that gets them involved]. (bold added)
BUT, he further mentions, 4 cylinder Saturns and whatnot do not do it for him "unless the lower classes are fast and interesting, you won't get fans to buy tickets...If i have the option of driving out to Desoto for what is essentially a pure stock race featuring imports, or staying at home for free, i'm probably going to have to stay home."

So, either the 4 cylinder bombers are going to cost a lot more to get "fast and interesting" or it will be a higher class of some sort.

Either way, Diversity = Mo' money and competition that is not close. Worse and worser.

[Phil Jacques]

Like those that say NACAR "should be based on street cars to fix all their problems", methinks what is really meant here is summarized in Matt's quote as follows: " I'll gladly buy a ticket to see...classes [with imports, fuel injection, computers, front drive, and anything else that gets them involved]. (bold added)
BUT, he further mentions, 4 cylinder Saturns and whatnot do not do it for him "unless the lower classes are fast and interesting, you won't get fans to buy tickets...If i have the option of driving out to Desoto for what is essentially a pure stock race featuring imports, or staying at home for free, i'm probably going to have to stay home."

So, either the 4 cylinder bombers are going to cost a lot more to get "fast and interesting" or it will be a higher class of some sort.

Either way, Diversity = Mo' money and competition that is not close. Worse and worser.

The way to approach things is to simplify and bring intelligence into these rules to keep the costs from growing (not necessarily decrease in all cases) in many of these divisions and combine like divisions of cars. As I said, there are Pure Stocks, Strickly Stocks, Street Stocks and Bombers that can all be turned into one division of car because they are so similar. Take the V8 bomber/pure/street/strickly type cars and form 1 division, V6 another, 4cyl another. That takes about 8 different divisions of 4 cars each and brings it to 3 fuller fields of cars right there. THAT is what the fans in the stands want to see and what will bring more fans. Nobody at all wants to watch 4 car fields race follow the leader hot laps. That's not entertaining in any way. Align the rules and simplify. Stop trying to cater to everyone because you will never make everybody happy. It will cost more for some and save money for others but in the end it will be better for everyone and simpler for the fans and teams as well.

[jacko241]

Phil, that video you posted was awesome. That is what short track racing should look like. I would rather see those cars than 10 SLM single file

[Phil Jacques]

Phil, that video you posted was awesome. That is what short track racing should look like. I would rather see those cars than 10 SLM single file

That's my division and one of my home tracks. That's real racing to me and why I am trying to help bring Florida in the general direction of.

[Matt Albee]

I read your posts. Some I will admit I think are good ideas, but there are a number of things that are good ideas on the surface but if you really start to get deeper they can pose some serious issues. One of those is allowing fuel injected cars. There is much more to it than just allowing them to run. Tech on a fuel injected car is a tricky proposition especially considering how many different makes and models are out there and how easy it really is to modify and manipulate the computers on these cars if you do a little research to advance timing, change the fuel curve etc. That all costs money and drives up the cost which absolutely goes against what you are proposing to help keep costs under control.

Regarding the money motor debate, if you are going to talk about one division, you might as well discuss them all. It's an issue in every division top to bottom. As I was discussing with Scott last night, a $1500 Jasper engine is more than suitable for a Bomber or similar class. There is no reason to be spending 4 to 5k on engines at that level. It kills the sport from the bottom up.

9 times out of 10, an average fan isn't going to be able to tell much difference between an Emod and OWM at the smaller tracks. You, having been involved, know the differences and are more in tune to the differences and that weighs on your preferences at the track, but I would bet many would agree with me, that they would rather see good hard competition, rather than super fast cars. Some of the best racing I have ever seen at some of our local tracks come from the lower divisions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eblR87rKt7g

watch this race and tell me it didn't have you on the edge of your seat...

Tech for injected, computerized cars might be an issue for local short tracks, but it shouldn't be. SCCA has successfully raced those combinations since they were new, 30 years ago. So have a number of world wide series. The fact that the local tech guy isn't familiar with those engines doesn't mean they are impossible to tech. And it's easy to download computers, mechanics do it every day. In fact, doesn't NSS require a Crane computer on the super lates? If the tech guy is the only reason for short tracks staying with decades old engines and chassis, then the tech guys need to go to school.
You're right about people spending stupid money on racing. We can start with Toter homes for weekly races. But there is no way to prevent racers from spending money. I just don't believe that pure money is the only way to be competitive and/or win races. You seem to do well on a budget. That tells me you work hard and smart. But if a big bucks racer is beating you by 5 hp as you describe, should we restrict him?
I actually know of a pure stock racer who sends his motors out of state to a pro race engine builder. He gets a perfectly legal engine back, but spends crazy money. Should we stop him from wasting money, or just keep working hard to beat him.

[OldSchool+]

ps--the "bracket racing" rules would take care of it.

Put 4 turbos on your Subaru with a cage and qualify it. Track Management will select your class.

To his credit, a 4wd Subie with a bunch of motor might get around pretty good. Am hoping the computer and CV joints are good for a good hit to the concrete from time to time...

[OldSchool+]

pps--Yep, them "toter home" guys with their beer and chicken, you gotta watch 'em...

[Matt Albee]

I'm not against the lower classes, but in the big picture, i just don't think slower classes are going to put fans in the strands. At least not enough fans. Spectators show up for the fast cars and are willing to sit through the lower classes as the side show. And i've seen some great racing in the lower classes. The video you posted is an excellent example. But the average fan isn't going to round up the kids, drive all the way out to the track, pay the ticket prices, buy the family some food and drinks every week if there aren't faster classes as well. And if the fans aren't showing up every week, then the tracks are going to have a tough time staying open.
I may have a better sense of what's fast and what's powerful than some fans, but they all know the difference in both sight and sound of a super late vs. a super stock. And between an e-mod and a NASCAR tour mod.