It's Soooooo Hard to Slow Down

[OldSchool+]

Given the amount and the depth of knowlege here I thought I would throw this ball out to be kicked around.

Back in the day, "late models" progressed from '55 Chevys to '64 Chevelles to tube chassis Camaros. Motors, tires, chassis tricks--all improved. Every year things got faster. Same with Cup. Richard and the boys were all sidways (drifting, "yaw", whatever) around those banks at Daytona at around 190 or so in '68 and it was exciting to watch. It was all exciting to watch.

Obviously, at both short and big tracks the money and the speed have gotten out of hand, affecting the competition.

But from Fontana to the e-mods at New Smyrna, when they try to slow them down, the show really suffers, if not stinks!

So, wise racers & engine builders, we know restrictor plates are not the total answer.

What would you suggest--in your class, or at the Cup level? Why can't we return the technology to a previous "known" level and be happy & save money?

Thx in advance for your insight.

[OldSchool+]

I will start with some guesses.

Intake valve max size 1.94", camshaft max lift .450, max carb CFM: 650.

Those are about the specs of a 327/300 hp engine from the '60s, am thinking racers could up that considerably, but the idea is to limit the max amount of air through the pump (engine), without resorting to restrictions.

[Boneman]

Want to slow 'em down? Simple. Put the U.S. government in charge of speeding them up. Instant 20 mph loss.

Actually, they will not be slowed down in a way that results in better racing. At the moment, the cars are not faster than the tracks, so skilled drivers hold the throttle on the floor and steer. To make the car faster than the track, imagine moving back to street tires (an absurd example, but stick with me). That way, the driver cannot just hold the button down the whole time, and they would have to drive the car. However, it would become much less safe, and you better believe that NASCAR will do nothing to decrease safety.

[OldSchool+]

Bonez (He's dead, Jim!),

Wellllllllllllllllllllll, they aren't counting lugnuts and they reduced the spoiler size, all increasing the chances of something getting into the stands.

I agree with your tire conclusion--on the Cup tracks. Slow down or it will spin out. Can't be worse than Talledega coming apart & Big Bill telling them that there are three pedals in the car, one is a brake. Narrower and/or harder tires would be my guess for the plate tracks.

Short tracks though, I believe the motors have put the price of admission right out of reach for many racers, and somehow "limited" motors don't produce 1972 style racing...

[scottgarrity07]

I will start with some guesses.

Intake valve max size 1.94", camshaft max lift .450, max carb CFM: 650.

Up the lift to 460 and you have the Sportsman crate motor. (Office Depot voice) "That was easy".

[OldSchool+]

Scott,

Indeed, and I am thinking about putting one of those in my street T/A if the sad-a 305 ever gives up.

One difference would be that in Sportsman, the crate is not to be modified, but those guys could, say, run 14:1 compression, or a light crank, or whatever.

As a guess, let's assume Anderson, Rodgers, and the other bucks-up, heads-up racers had those engines in their late models.

How do you think the show would be with 20 of them at NSS?

And although the crate H/O motor fits my little guess, is that your guess as well?

[RowdyBloomquist]

For what it is worth, this is my opinion of short track Latemodel racing as it is today... I have been around it since I was born, as my dad Junior Purcell won races all over the place. Since i was a kid, I have usually been at the racetrack either driving or helping crew at least twice a month.

Have you ever seen a American Canadian Tour (ACT) race? 30-50 cars every race and very competitive. Crate motors, spec KONI shocks (all the same), 8" tire. NO bump stops allowed and spring rule. I think they got it right.

"NO SUSPENSION TRAVEL LIMITING DEVICES ALLOWED UNLESS SPECIFICALLY OUTLINED IN THE
ACT RULEBOOK. (Examples include, but are not limited to: bump stops, coil binding, chains, or
shock mounting locations)."

http://www.acttour.com/rules/15LMRules.pdf

I think where short track racing went array, is when bump stops/coil binding with $3-5k shock packages came into play. Most of the lower income mom and pop late model teams threw in the towel. When you have to go race against a cup team, with all of their resources, you might as well stay home. If somehow, it could get back to conventional suspension and not allowing the use of bump stops, coil-binding, and other new ways of "bumping" cars such as Helix plates etc... This is where all the money for R&D is spent. Not on motors. Most teams wouldn't have an issue racing PLM or SLM with the crate or Spec engine package money wise. It's the cup technology that has filtered down through the years that has taken away from a lot of the competitiveness. What used to be a $55 Hypercoil/Eibach spring matched with a $100 Carrera/Pro non adjustable shock, has now gone to upwards of a $200 high travel coil over matched with a $1500 shock...that's per wheel. Not counting the money spent on bump rubbers/washers/shims. Let alone the $2-5K and upwards of $7k spent on the Gale Force/Dragon Slayer machine used to dyno these packages at the track. As far as "big spring" cars go, when you start talking about Helix plates, then you are looking at even more money to essentially coil-bind the car. $1200 front springs and another $500-600 in an adjustable helix with countless laps of testing and specially built/cheated up Lower A-frames...All NASCAR technology. I think if FL Latemodel racing followed some of ACT's procedures, there would be happier racers and fans. Of course the big boys with unlimited budgets would get butt-hurt because they would be losing their upper hand, and especially once they started getting out-run, but hey, that's part of the game.

Also, I'm not old enough to remember watching, but wasn't the NASCAR days back in the 60's/70's one or 2 guys lapping the field numerous times because they had factory backing? R&D and the time it takes to go fast....All comes down to how much $$$ can you spend.

-Eric Purcell

[scottgarrity07]

Don't know about my guess, but my specs are right. ACT puts on a great show but their lap times at NSS were same as Sportsman (even though they have the 604 crate which makes 50 more horse). Don't think the fans would get excited watching Super Lates go that slow. I talked before about a test Circle Track did with Dalton Zehr in a Super at NSS with an injected LS motor that kept up but only cost around $10k. Don't know where that car is or what happened to that project. I was going to ask Dalton about it at the K and N race, but I forgot... (CRS affliction)

[RowdyBloomquist]

Scott I agree. Let them keep the motor rules used now along with the 10" tire, but limit the suspension rules. That's where I was going with my comment.

[scottgarrity07]

Scott I agree. Let them keep the motor rules used now along with the 10" tire, but limit the suspension rules. That's where I was going with my comment.

Yes, I agree. As you pointed out suspension technology has gotten out of control (and the spending of those with the $ to implement Cup technology in their SLM's). ACT rules for suspension keeps that stuff out and, as a result, keeps costs down and competition tight.

[OldSchool+]

RB--Thx for the insight. Am in complete agreement.

Seems like all that could be negated by each track simply mandating a relatively stiff right front spring, no?

Back in the day they ran two street (probably truck) shocks per corner and that was that--and the racing was great.

Additionally, I get where you are coming from with one car lapping the field, but the danger was there, the motor was singing (as opposed to a plate motor which sounds like a sick H/O without the forward slash...).

It was exciting to watch. Additionally, there were only five or so cars that could compete at that $$ level.

If the cars were somehow closer to that level--without plates, and there were 43 of them, that would be something.

ps--What is a helix, please?

[OldSchool+]

Scott,

You cannot tell how fast they are from the stands.

If they are screaming with a nice crisp exhaust note, slightly sideways coming out of turn four, and somebody is on the outside, who cares what the stopwatch says?

Actually, that is my opinion. Perhaps some do.

Never ceases to amaze me how the F1 set is soooooooooo impressed with themselves--and their speed and technology.

IMO, it is more exciting to watch an interstate from an overpass--the cars are closer together.

[scottgarrity07]

Unfortunately, Oldschool, I don't think it's possible that we will ever see "1972-style" competition ever again with Late Models. They are just too dang fast now. I would bet Sportsman lap times nowadays would be record setting speed for Late Models back then. I drove a Super Late for a guy for one year at Thompson Speedway (a little bigger, little faster sister to NSS). That car had incredible grip. Problem was there was no threshhold. You either stuck or went over the edge and spun. You cannot slide these cars like the old ones (or a Sportsman). On Saturday my car got quite loose on exit at Desoto during Time Trials. I held it wide open and slid it straight. If I tried that in a Super, I'd be bringing it home in a basket.

[RowdyBloomquist]

Helix...Let me see if I can find some Literature.

[OldSchool+]

RD--no biggie, just explain it in your own words and I will try to keep up.