It's Soooooo Hard to Slow Down

[Phil Jacques]

Tech for injected, computerized cars might be an issue for local short tracks, but it shouldn't be. SCCA has successfully raced those combinations since they were new, 30 years ago. So have a number of world wide series. The fact that the local tech guy isn't familiar with those engines doesn't mean they are impossible to tech. And it's easy to download computers, mechanics do it every day. In fact, doesn't NSS require a Crane computer on the super lates? If the tech guy is the only reason for short tracks staying with decades old engines and chassis, then the tech guys need to go to school.
You're right about people spending stupid money on racing. We can start with Toter homes for weekly races. But there is no way to prevent racers from spending money. I just don't believe that pure money is the only way to be competitive and/or win races. You seem to do well on a budget. That tells me you work hard and smart. But if a big bucks racer is beating you by 5 hp as you describe, should we restrict him?
I actually know of a pure stock racer who sends his motors out of state to a pro race engine builder. He gets a perfectly legal engine back, but spends crazy money. Should we stop him from wasting money, or just keep working hard to beat him.

Joe can correct me on this, but the SCCA doesn't have a rule preventing computer modification to my knowledge. The general idea here is to keep cost down in the low divisions and by introducing EFI it can bring costs way up unless they police it extremely strictly. I just don't think the tracks are going to want to go through the extra hassle. You need to remember, the current OBDII computer systems are easy plug and play stuff, but the majority of the cars out there will be older OBDI and older style systems which are not plug and play to read that simply.

I am going to strongly disagree that lower divisions won't bring people to the track. What brings the majority of people in, is entertainment. There are a lot of people just to see cars running side by side making contact and smell the burning fuel and tires. Casual fans like that can't tell you what division they are watching, they just know they are entertained by a good on track product. THAT sir, is the key. A good product, no matter if it's Champ Karts or Pro Stocks, if the product sucks, you aren't getting fans. Each division has it's niche group of fans, but they are the minority rather than the majority. It takes EVERY division to make a successful program. If you only cater to one group, it will fail EVERY SINGLE TIME.

[OldSchool+]

4 classes:

Late Models

Modifieds

V8 Hobby Stocks

4 cylinder Hobby Stocks

+ bring umbrella girls--they are colorful

[Phil Jacques]

4 classes:

Late Models

Modifieds

V8 Hobby Stocks

4 cylinder Hobby Stocks

+ bring umbrella girls--they are colorful

Less classes will yield better car counts, better racing and eventually better crowds. FL tracks need to realize this soon. I wouldn't pay a penny to go to any track where I expected less than 15 cars per division.

[Matt Albee]

Joe can correct me on this, but the SCCA doesn't have a rule preventing computer modification to my knowledge. The general idea here is to keep cost down in the low divisions and by introducing EFI it can bring costs way up unless they police it extremely strictly. I just don't think the tracks are going to want to go through the extra hassle. You need to remember, the current OBDII computer systems are easy plug and play stuff, but the majority of the cars out there will be older OBDI and older style systems which are not plug and play to read that simply.

I am going to strongly disagree that lower divisions won't bring people to the track. What brings the majority of people in, is entertainment. There are a lot of people just to see cars running side by side making contact and smell the burning fuel and tires. Casual fans like that can't tell you what division they are watching, they just know they are entertained by a good on track product. THAT sir, is the key. A good product, no matter if it's Champ Karts or Pro Stocks, if the product sucks, you aren't getting fans. Each division has it's niche group of fans, but they are the minority rather than the majority. It takes EVERY division to make a successful program. If you only cater to one group, it will fail EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I'm not so sure that computer modification is a problem. The older generation of racers ported cylinder heads to gain performance, the new generation makes changes in the computer. Same thing, just a different way to go faster. Calibrating computers doesn't cost money, any high school kid with a lap top can do it for free. As for EFI, i don't see that as any more of a problem that carb tech. All of the EFI systems have part numbers. If your EFI system part number is what's stock for the engine you're running, then you're fine. The internals on race carbs are heavily modified from stock Holley carbs, what would be the difference if the internals of the stock EFIs were modified?
Even casual fans know the difference between a super late and a super stock. And while racing used to be all about close racing, the fans have all seen super lates, nascar tour mods, sprint cars, etc. The fans aren't going to buy tickets for shows that only feature lower class cars. Now new fans, and some fans like me would go to the track and enjoy the show because the new fan doesn't know any better, and i love racing. But the average fan is not going to keep coming to the track for a lesser show. Can the tracks survive on less front injector money and larger car count? Maybe. Maybe not.

[OldSchool+]

Spectator count is off.

Some is due to "newbies" preferring new interests.

Some is due to "oldies" disenfranchised with low car counts and in some cases, higher ticket sale prices that are staying home.

The second is lower hanging fruit. That is, give us good car counts and good close racing and we already want to be there.

And the first group? Without the improved show, forgettaboudit.

[Phil Jacques]

Spectator count is off in FL for one sole reason

THE ON TRACK PRODUCT SUCKS!

There isn't a fan in the world that enjoys watching 3 or 4 cars buzz around on their own.. That's not a race in any way shape of form, period end of story no discussion


Matt, regarding lower divisions not bringing in the fans. I see it weekly. The Waterford Speedbowl has something called Wild and Wacky Wednesdays... It's a short program comprised of Super X cars (V8 bombers), X Cars (4cyls), Legends and Bandos. They absolutely PACK the place every single week all year. There are no modifieds, no super late models, nothing. Just lower class divisions and the place is just about standing room only. There are between 25 and 30 cars per division in the big cars with constant side by side action about 20 in Legends and 10 in Bandos. So, that is proof positive that if you have a good product people will show up for lower divisions.

Also, 9 times out of 10 the track rules list the only modifications allowed to heads and carbs which are very limited anymore. Gone are the days of heavy modification to carbs for the most part.

[OldSchool+]

re: Proof positive.

Assuming that is the only factor. I believe our demographic is different.

Now, Hialeah was outside of Miami and they had some of the most dedicated fans, Larry Rogero ("Ro-hair-o"), but most of the kids today are not stock car fans.

We look like the bad guy in the black dodge charger.

And please, no "D" word...

[Phil Jacques]

re: Proof positive.

Assuming that is the only factor. I believe our demographic is different.

Now, Hialeah was outside of Miami and they had some of the most dedicated fans, Larry Rogero ("Ro-hair-o"), but most of the kids today are not stock car fans.

We look like the bad guy in the black dodge charger.

And please, no "D" word...

Explain why the demographic would be any worse there than here? People want cheap entertainment anywhere. If you give them a GOOD product, they will pay to come. End of story. You guys probably have a greater population density surrounding most of your tracks honestly. Stafford is in the middle of nowhere over an hour away from the nearest major city, Waterford is near the smaller cities of New London and Norwich but nowhere near the population of places like Desoto and Showtime and Thompson is just in the woods lol

Entertainment is what puts asses in the seats. You guys have more larger towns/cities (Ocala, Orlando, Daytona, Clearwater, Tampa etc closer to your tracks than we do. You guys just don't have the on track product that we do.

It's also glaringly obvious to me that tracks there just don't do their job when it comes to promotion. I have plenty of friends spread across the entire state down there. I ask them all very often what they have heard about ads for local tracks. Occasionally someone will mention Desoto or Showtime but they rarely hear anything. Up here, we have constant radio ads, tv ads, newspaper ads, flyers etc and guess what, We have near capacity crowds on a regular basis. You guys can do the exact same but all the ducks have to be lined up in proper order. As I keep saying, it's getting close, but not close enough... Yet...

Oh and one last thing. If you really want to get into demographics... Circle track is touted as a "redneck sport". Likely more rednecks down there than here

[OldSchool+]

We have beat the tar out of that horse quite a bit already.

I maintain the north has more race fans and more money in general (which is always tied to racing).

I thought it was a complimentary conclusion.

You disagree.

Oh well.

[Phil Jacques]

We have beat the tar out of that horse quite a bit already.

I maintain the north has more race fans and more money in general (which is always tied to racing).

I thought it was a complimentary conclusion.

You disagree.

Oh well.

And we already proved that you were partly right and mostly wrong in your assessment lol

[OldSchool+]

Yes, BOTH of your wacky personalities agreed...

[Matt Albee]

Spectator count is off in FL for one sole reason

THE ON TRACK PRODUCT SUCKS!

There isn't a fan in the world that enjoys watching 3 or 4 cars buzz around on their own.. That's not a race in any way shape of form, period end of story no discussion


Matt, regarding lower divisions not bringing in the fans. I see it weekly. The Waterford Speedbowl has something called Wild and Wacky Wednesdays... It's a short program comprised of Super X cars (V8 bombers), X Cars (4cyls), Legends and Bandos. They absolutely PACK the place every single week all year. There are no modifieds, no super late models, nothing. Just lower class divisions and the place is just about standing room only. There are between 25 and 30 cars per division in the big cars with constant side by side action about 20 in Legends and 10 in Bandos. So, that is proof positive that if you have a good product people will show up for lower divisions.

Also, 9 times out of 10 the track rules list the only modifications allowed to heads and carbs which are very limited anymore. Gone are the days of heavy modification to carbs for the most part.

I guess " we should care how they do it up north ". I don't doubt that Waterford can make a show like that work. But i'm not sure Waterford was run into the ground like many of the Florida tracks. The fans at these tracks left, most will never return. So i can tell you that the type of show you describe would not pack the house here in Florida.
However, we have a perfect chance to find out. OSW is doing exactly what you describe. Mostly all lower classes. I think their crowds have picked up with this new format. Though to be fair, there were NO fans in the stands, so any fans would be an improvement. But lets see if OSW can pack the place with lower classes.

[OldSchool+]

They have cars, and they race hard.

When OSW gets to where you can count on that, the fan count will slowly increase.

There are no magic beans. Typically a track has to spread a lot of cash around (like St Pete) and get a gate fairly quickly, or spread a little cash around and wait (ie lose mo money) for the gate to slowly pick up.

[scottgarrity07]

Hmmm, I remember in the not-too-distant past Waterford Speedbowl being referred to as "The Toilet Bowl"...

[Phil Jacques]

I guess " we should care how they do it up north ". I don't doubt that Waterford can make a show like that work. But i'm not sure Waterford was run into the ground like many of the Florida tracks. The fans at these tracks left, most will never return. So i can tell you that the type of show you describe would not pack the house here in Florida.
However, we have a perfect chance to find out. OSW is doing exactly what you describe. Mostly all lower classes. I think their crowds have picked up with this new format. Though to be fair, there were NO fans in the stands, so any fans would be an improvement. But lets see if OSW can pack the place with lower classes.

HAHAHAHA Hey Scott Garrity, he said Waterford wasn't run into the ground!!!

Matt, man if you only knew. People were leaving the track and going to the nearest gas station just to take a piss last year. It had gotten BAD. The place is an absolute toilet to the point we called it the "Shitbowl" But, the on track product was exciting and entertaining so people continued to come. Not only that, but there have been many occasions in past years where many drivers including SK track champ Tyler Chadwick and WMT driver Woody Pitkat did not receive winning race paychecks for the $5000 to win show as well as times where NOBODY got paid. Hell, we all had to chase down management the past number of offseasons for MONTHS just to get 1099s. But we all still come back because... TA DA!!! THE ON TRACK PRODUCT AND RACING IN GENERAL IS AWESOME! Waterford at the end of last year had gotten to be worse than any track you can imagine in FL in regards to facilities, management etc. The only thing they had was the racing and it kept fans coming back. They even had 80% of the grandstands roped off because they were unsafe for most of 2013 and 2014.

For the record, Desoto and Showtime aside, pictures of most tracks I see in FL have NO fans in the stands. Did you see New Smyrna this past weekend? I could count the fans on one hand pretty much. An absolute JOKE!

OSW hasn't packed the place in 30+ years, meanwhile I have visited Desoto, Citrus, NSS etc in the past 10 years and seen VERY full grandstands at those tracks. So you can not compare a dead horse to any of this.

Also, OSW is not doing anything like what I describe. They are bringing in emods and sportsmans which are far from low divisions. A modified is still a modified to a lot of people regardless of what sound it makes or what is under the hood.