Great News About Desota

[Matt Albee]

I haven't heard the " too many races " thing before. Maybe that's part of the problem for the racers. I'm not sure what the optimal season for stock car racing is. Some fans and racers wouldn't mind 52 weeks a year. Others want to take off 3 months or so in the summer. Colder parts of the country only race 6 months out of the year. Would a 6 month race season keep the fans and racers in Florida happy? Once they find something else to do in the other 6 months, will they come back to the track?
The " bracket racing " idea has been floated many times on many boards. It's worked in many other parts of the country for many decades. But for some reason the Florida promoters tend to be a bit deaf to new ideas. It's the best way to build stock car racing back to the level it should be at. That, and cars that younger fans even recognize.

[flvideo]

Randy I agree that we need to find a way to include EFI cars. Its not going to be too long and the only carbs you'll find cost a fortune. It well may be that way now, i don't know. I haven't bought car parts in a long time. You are right about the older cars Matt. Those old cars are getting harder and harder to find. This is something I don't know, but, is it safe to race a unibody car with out beefing them up tremendously? I suppose most of the 4 cly are but I guess they beef them up with the cage. My point with the video's was that instead of combining classes lets build the classes back to where they were. I wouldn't be opposed to combining on a given night if one class was slack of cars but score them in their class but you have more cars on the track for the fans. 40 races a year is much for a low budget team. Even though we have had several breaks this year with all thats gone on, I have heard several people complain about racing this late in the year! When I raced I wanted to race every time there was a show at my home track but that was before a lot of you were born and things were different back then! On a different note, I am proud of you guys! We have 3 pages of discussion and no one has gotten angry or huffy! Thats a good use of a board like this. KUDO'S!

[Rick Anges]

3500 + views I guarantee there are a lot of eyes on this thread...

[flvideo]

It is a subject all that are infected with the racing bug are interested in!

[Matt Albee]

To put " full " fields on the track, I think you're going to have to combine classes. No one would be happier than me if all of the classes could be built back up to the level of 10 years ago. But in spite of many, many attempts to do so, there still aren't enough cars at most tracks to fill out heat races or even features.
So lets throw em all together. I seem to recall that the trucks raced with the Sportsman cars ( I think it was NSS ) and frogs didn't fall from the sky.
Put all the cars together, drop the class designations we currently have, and call em all stock cars. I've seen a number of posts from people who say you use qualifying to determine class.
Everyone runs the same basic rules, and you also have the leeway to add to your car if you want. You'd still have Super Lates and you'd still have Street Stocks. But they'd be in one class called stock cars. You then split the fields each night into 4 groups according to times. Each group races against cars their own speed. That way, there is always 25% of the cars that timed in that night on the track for each race. Put the top 6 or 8 qualifiers out for a trophy dash. And invert every race completely.

[kendo]

If anyone has any real evidence that entry level classes are what the fans come to see, by all means share it. .

Better yet,show me some evidence where an asphalt track has promoted the bomber/super stock class on a consistant basis to make it a good class....You are correct,fans don't come to see 5 bombers/pure stocks/super stocks.

[scottgarrity07]

The ultimate decider in all this will be the racer. What you describe above, Matt, looks good on paper, but I wouldn't be a part of it. Nor would most of the racers I know. I only will race against Sportsman cars and the same Sportsman drivers. I won't race against Trucks because their roof height is too tall and I can't see through them to avoid wrecks, like when your behind a big SUV in a compact car. It's just an unnecessary risk. Try this and racers will go elsewhere. I dont think race fans want to see races that look like traffic either. Combining classes will just send drivers packing too, because the lower division combined in will not like being uncompetitive. Combining like classes (Bomber, Street Stock, Super Stock) and declaring separate winners (like Grand Am) would work on nights when car counts are low. FLvideo has it right. Give the racers a good environment to race under and you will draw cars. Desoto being run by Jimmy and Critter will create this environment. I think you can help things by eliminating one of the stock classes like they are trying to do. But to make this successful you have to not make the lower class have to upgrade. Like I said, make the Street Stocks detune to Bombers or upgrade to Sportsman. Anyways, back in the real world Desoto is having their Rules Meeting tomorrow and we will see what transpires. If any of you racers have a dog in this fight I would suggest you attend. If you go, please tell us what happened!

[Matt Albee]

Better yet,show me some evidence where an asphalt track has promoted the bomber/super stock class on a consistant basis to make it a good class....You are correct,fans don't come to see 5 bombers/pure stocks/super stocks.

Or a Florida asphalt track that really promotes at all. There aren't many.

[Lucky6]

Responds

Now I have been on here giving my two cents about combining class and how I felt about that, but I will say this, if your intentions are to combine class to eliminate some class and build up others then fine. Now lets combine class that make some reasonable since.

First leave the bombers V8 class because the split between that and a street stock are to far apart.

Combine the Mini Stocks and the Mod Mini's - Same motor with very few modifications maybe some body changes. or Suspension changes

Combine the Street Stocks and Sportsman. Same motor 602 create or built 350 Less suspension and other changes.

Have Trucks

Combine Pro Lates and Lates- not much other than motor. Same body and suspension.

Combine Pro4's and Flying4's Hardly no changes

Have Bus's
Have Cowboy Caddies
Have Open Wheel Mod

These would be my basic class that would run not 35 to 40 weeks a year but maybe 20-25 weeks and then fill in with some of the traveling class to make your show up each week.

This would eliminated 4 class and combine 4.

Just a thought!!!!!!

[Matt Albee]

The ultimate decider in all this will be the racer. What you describe above, Matt, looks good on paper, but I wouldn't be a part of it. Nor would most of the racers I know. I only will race against Sportsman cars and the same Sportsman drivers. I won't race against Trucks because their roof height is too tall and I can't see through them to avoid wrecks, like when your behind a big SUV in a compact car. It's just an unnecessary risk. Try this and racers will go elsewhere. I dont think race fans want to see races that look like traffic either. Combining classes will just send drivers packing too, because the lower division combined in will not like being uncompetitive. Combining like classes (Bomber, Street Stock, Super Stock) and declaring separate winners (like Grand Am) would work on nights when car counts are low. FLvideo has it right. Give the racers a good environment to race under and you will draw cars. Desoto being run by Jimmy and Critter will create this environment. I think you can help things by eliminating one of the stock classes like they are trying to do. But to make this successful you have to not make the lower class have to upgrade. Like I said, make the Street Stocks detune to Bombers or upgrade to Sportsman. Anyways, back in the real world Desoto is having their Rules Meeting tomorrow and we will see what transpires. If any of you racers have a dog in this fight I would suggest you attend. If you go, please tell us what happened!

Sounds like you're ready to just ride racing into the ground rather than risk leaving your comfort zone, or in this case your comfort class. The idea I suggested isn't experimental. It's been used very successfully all over the country for decades.
If stock car racing on a local level is even going to survive, much less grow, the show has to be changed to bring in the customers. I know that because Florida short track racing is doing exactly what it was doing thirty years ago and the crowd has dropped off to almost no one. A few tracks on a few nights might do well. But local short track racing is almost dead in Florida. Asphalt at least. So why keep doing the same things that are being proven ineffective every Saturday night?
There is an alternative, but if you don't feel you should make even the slightest changes to improve things, you're sure not gonna like it. The alternative is to go to a drag race business model. That is, there's a $100 or $200 entry fee per car, $25 or $35 pit pass per person, and your purse comes strictly out of that because there is no front gate to speak of at a drag race. And to make the payout worthwhile, you would only pay back 4 places or so. That's the model you use when you don't draw very many spectators.
There has to be a full field of cars on the track in every race to keep the sponsors and spectators. And a full field of Bombers isn't going to accomplish that. Combine the classes and give the fans the show they paid for.

[Old Sunshine Fan]

And The Results From The "Meeting"

Ok...lets hear it....OSF

[SSMotorsports14]

They decided to qualify every class every night! Just getting your blood flowing! LOL!!!!!!!

[scottgarrity07]

@Matt- What you percieve as a "comfort zone" or "comfort class" in reality is called "racing within your means". I have been racing for over 20 years and one of the first things I observed is that when you get in over your head financially in this sport, you will soon be gone. I think it's funny that you think that there is something "lowly" about racing a Sportsman, Street Stock, Bomber etc. and that we should all be striving to move up and up and up in class. Here's something that you should already know, the level a racer is racing at is in no way indicative of his talent level. It's indicative of his money level. I love racing Sportsman. The cars are essentially the Late Models of 20-30 years ago and are fast and fun to drive. It is an affordable class because most of the racers are seasoned veterans and keep their head about them (for the most part). It is usually a division that is skipped by rich Dad's looking to get their 14 yr. old to become the next NASCAR star. As a result you don't have these win-at-all-cost-make-a-name-for-myself-I-don't-have-to-pay-for-my carnage "children" running over you. The Dad's that DO chose to have their kids progress through Sportsman are usually guys that teach their sons/daughters to race with respect. I have raced with a lot of these young men and it has been nothing but fun. That being said, by no means is the division boring. In my opinion it is one of the most competitive divisions in FL and we usually put on a very exciting show.

Now, on the other hand I am with you in thinking that there needs to be some changes in the way things are done in order for the sport to return to its former glory. I just don't feel that we need to go to the extremes that you are suggesting. Besides there is no way that you are going to get ALL of the tracks to make the radical change that you are suggesting. If you think that that can happen then you are living in a fantasy world. If one track tried this, I assure you most of the racers would flock to the next nearest speedway. John S. tried this Outlaw Sportsman deal a couple of years ago at Desoto that basically is what you are talking about and it was a compete and utter failure. Nobody came. People don't like radical change, especially when you are spending this kind of money. Call me an optimist but I just don't think the sport is as far gone, as you suggest, to necessitate this kind of change. I think the biggest handicap that our sport is currently facing is the floundering local economy. In late September I attended a race at my former Speedway in CT. In CT the economy is a little less volatile then it is here. Let me tell you, they are using the same formula that they have been using for the past 20-30 yrs and the fields were full and the grandstand had about 3,000 people. This was a regular division night too. Now while we can't change the economy we CAN do things to help attract more cars to race here. What you have to do is create an environment where the racer is willing to spend his money because he feels it is worth it. They have started doing this at Desoto already under Jimmy and Critter. A lot of these things also create a better experience for the fan also. Here's what they have done:

1. Eliminate Time Trialing and run Heats and Handicap the feature lineup.
Good for the racer because EVERYONE will get a chance to start up front at some point and have a chance to win (makes you wanna spend your money).
Good for the fan because they don't have to endure paint-drying-boring time trials AND the fast guys don't start up front take the lead by lap 2 and stink up the show. It is very cool for the fan to be able to watch the "hot dogs" slice their way through the field and eventually battle for the lead late in the race (instead of the leader 3/4 of a lap ahead of the field at the white flag).

2. Thoroughly Tech the cars. If the racer feels that there is a level playing field and cheating will be caught, then they are more likely to want to race (especially if they don't have the deep pockets to cheat). Confiscate illegal parts. You don't have to rip motors apart all the time. Buy a good video scope and you can look deep down in the motor. Good for the fans because if cheating is caught more cars will race legal and it will tighten up the field and you will have more door to door racing.

Is that all that needs to be done? Hell no. A lot of this is rehash but here we go:

#1 Promote the damned racetrack. This doesn't have to cost a bazillion dollars. Barter with T.V., radio and newspapers. Trade their ads for billboards, program space, announcer pitches and ticket giveaways. Try to entice the local sports people to give you SOME coverage. Invite the morning show down to the track on big race weekends, put the big fat T.V. guy in a 2 seater car and scare the crap out of him. Put your sexiest Super Late Model or Sprint on display and put it on T.V.

#2 Make the tire rules reflect the purses you are paying the division. Look were never going make money as racers but should we have to buy 4 tires a night at $520 to win $400? Entry level classes should be on street tires but the track should make a deal to get the tires cheap in volume and require that ONE street tire.

#3 Put On A Show at All Times. Stop these endless intermissions with the pace car doing 5000 laps with NOTHING going on (running heats helps this). Look, I realize there needs to be an intermission but at least try to entertain people. It's easy. First every track should have TWO announcers so that when there is a break in the action people can listen to a CONVERSATION about the racing going on, not just one guy ranting endlessly to no one. Even during long yellows this helps. Take a cue from TV. Put a guy in the pits with a wireless microphone. "Johnny Hot Rod has just been involved in the wreck in turn one, the crew is feverishly working to fix Johnny's car to make it back out" or "Elvis Smelvin is here with me, his car is destroyed, what happened out there Elvis?". Keep 'em engaged.

#4 If your racetrack is somewhat 2 groove have double-file restarts, cool, it puts on a show. If your track is one-groove DON'T have double-file. All it will do is create more boring long cautions that fans hate. Either way if the double-file gets out of control go single-file and save your fan's patience and your driver's cars. No matter what your track is like, do whatever you can to MAKE it MORE two groove. Sealer, high-groove only practice, whatever. Side by side is exciting, freight train is boring.

#5 The usual rehash. Good affordable food, clean ladies bathrooms, safe grandstands, a WORKING scoreboard, an audible PA system, a good tight show that gets the kiddies home before it's too late.

#6 STOP RACING IN RAINY SEASON! Split the year in two. Feb to May and Mid-Aug to Mid-Dec. Have a big 4th of July race if you'd like. When you run in the summer you rain out half the time, nobody wants to sit in the heat and humidity and you interfere with family summer vacations. Taking these months off also enables your competitors to be able to afford to support you every race.

#7 Make the entry level classes "bone stock". This will allow E.F.I. and newer models to compete. Have a 4cyl. class and a V6/V8 class. Even up the 6's and 8's with weight or maybe 2bbl only for 8's. Experiment and find a happy medium. This is what Showtime is doing with 4cyl's and it is BY FAR their most popular (car count wise) class. It's cheap and fun.

#8 If a class can't draw cars eliminate the class but allow them to still compete by detuning to the lower class or upgrading to the next class. Even them up with weight to help them be competitive if they are moving up.

#9 If you are going to run Bandeleros or Karts do it early, early before the rest of the show kicks in. Run their heats during the day in between practice.

#10 Try to get sponsorship to help with costs and boost the purse. BUT you have to start drawing a crowd before you can market yourself as a viable advertising venue.

O.K. I know that was long as hell, but I've exhausted my rant. If the tracks try all of this stuff (none of which costs much money at all) and no cars come and no fans show then I'll be willing to try your "bracket racing" thingy, Matt.

[Jimmy McKinley]

If the tracks try all of this stuff (none of which costs much money at all) and no cars come and no fans show then I'll be willing to try your "bracket racing" thingy, Matt.

Up here, most of the tracks have a "breakout" in the lower classes; why, I still haven't figured that out yet. Guys'll get out front and to the lead in the 4-cylinder "compacts", then slam on the brakes when they realize they're gonna break out on their lap time. The way it works is, you cannot run a race lap more than 2-tenths quicker than what you qualified (don't get me started on time trials, either). The "breakout" thing makes for crappy "racing", with more needless cautions from guys running into the back of other cars.

Now, your guys' version of "bracket" racing, you're talking about getting cars that run similar lap times into one big group. We had a track that tried to combine 3 different classes of cars with *very* similar rules and body styles - and they *still* couldn't get eight cars in a feature. They ended up dropping all three classes entirely. The slowest cars didn't show up because they knew they'd get their asses handed to 'em - and the fastest cars in that group didn't wanna run over the top of anybody and cause accidents.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Matt Albee]

#8 on the above list would get some racers worked up. But much more important, what do you do with classes that don't bring in spectators? That's what this entire thread is really about.
I can understand the desire of some to stay at a certain level, for whatever reason. Money, driving talent, mechanical talent, or just motivation.
But we're talking about racers when we need to be talking about the fans. The fans no longer come to the races because the races aren't very interesting. It's not about good food, or clean restrooms, or even ticket prices. Sure, those things all make a difference and there's no excuse for any track to not have all of those and more under control. The fans aren't coming to the track because there's nothing to bring them out. It might be real exciting for a driver to battle it out for a top three in his feature. But when that feature only had 9 cars in it and 4 of those cars were half a lap behind at the finish, how exciting was it for the fans?
If you pull 60 " stock cars " in, time them all, divide them up by time, and put them on the track in heats and one ( or possibly even two features ), you have a large field of closely matched cars in every race. And the fans get a show. Especially if all of the races are inverted.
As for only a couple of tracks doing this, if it proved to work, every track would follow immediately. They'd have to or close the doors. And since every tack could and would have the ability to use their own rules, it would really just be a matter of changing the race format. Nobody has to build another car, in fact no changes at all to the cars. Just a smarter and more interesting way to run the races.