Owners and Promoters--Want to Kill Your Show? Traction Control!

[zerofor]

This has been an interesting thread. Since I'm not in the pit area anymore I thank you guys for the insight. The reality is this I believe though, there were guys that would bend rules years ago to win a race that paid a hundred dollars to win.If guys would do that then for that amount of money how far or deep in the pockets to win nowadays? That being said if the tracks themselves won't invest the money for the technology or the time to learn how to detect this stuff than that means it all falls on the shoulders of the very well paid time is no issue tech guy. It's not NASCAR. If the tracks won't do it how can you expect the tech guy to?Its a sad but true fact unless the money and effort and commitment are made first by the track owner's themselves. Anyway that's the way it looks to me.Once again thanks for all the info on this.

[OldSchool+]

There are those that say "try harder". There are those that say it can be done by the driver.

And there have been some smooth ones along the way. Leroy Porter, Ernie Bass, David Rodgers, Brad May...

"[Our Traction Control intervention is] Extremely Fast- Reacts Within One Cylinder Firing"--Davis Technologies

It is more than just eliminating wheel spin coming off--itself a big help. A car can be set up much "looser", knowing that it will not break the tires loose coming off. This results in a higher corner speed at the apex, and combined with a matted throttle coming off--all of that turns into a higher speed midway down the straight.

Is a "good" driver that good? More accurately, with a similar ton of money under the hood and similar chassis, can they compete with a car with illegal traction control that is that good?

[OldSchool+]

Here is another absurd thought that may spark something more sane down the road.

Five minutes before qualifying, inform the competitors that the rear tires need some ridiculous amount of air pressure. I dunno, say 40 (or whatever) pounds of air in the right rear.

Give them a little range for the left rear, so they can get some reasonable stagger into the car.

NOW it should be a little more clear who is running what when they go out to qualify.

[JC26]

I really like the story about the tech man who took a hammer to a carb. That had me cracking up.

The whole thing with TC is getting to be ridiculous. Its obviously hard to find and most tech men don't know where to begin looking. My issue is with the enforcement of it. OK, it's been said in here someone was caught in a modified with it and told not to come back to that track. At a race at that track a mere two weeks ago that driver was back in action there. The driver in question is a hell of a wheel man and a damn nice guy too, which is why no one will say his name. However, if we're gonna base things off a level playing field I don't give a shit if Jesus Christ himself was caught using TC he needs to be thrown out all the same as the guy who is most hated and NOT be allowed to come back at all. Set a precedent. Everyone on here agrees racing costs are astronomical to what they used to be and it's a contributing factor in why the sport is dying out. So we're essentially gonna let the costs keep rising and people keep spending to gain an extra edge because they're nice guys or we'll liked people? Don't get me wrong, some of these guys out there bust their asses in the shop week in and week out on a budget that's the difference between McDonald's or Kraft Mac and cheese that week. But what about the guys that just open the check book to pay for a set up without ever turning a wrench? Or can afford to spend $2500 on a TC unit because the little guy in the shop is out working him and beat him by 2/10ths.

It starts with finding it. That's a big hurdle to get over. But by God if or when you do find it make an example of them. Would you rather lose one car who was cheating or 10 cars who were tired of being beat by a cheater?

[OldSchool+]

Er..., it would not be Jesus Christ, he is the co-author of the ultimate "Rule Book".

Thankfully, for all us rule breakers, follow Him and you don't get "permanently banned".

RE: Traction control. Any thoughts on the mechanics of "finding it"?

[JC26]

Er..., it would not be Jesus Christ, he is the co-author of the ultimate "Rule Book".

Thankfully, for all us rule breakers, follow Him and you don't get "permanently banned".

RE: Traction control. Any thoughts on the mechanics of "finding it"?

Honestly if I were the track owners or tech men I would learn as much about these companies who manufacture TC as I could. Devin hit the nail on the head when he mentioned reverse engineering. Read up on these devices and limit the loopholes that you allow. But again it begins and ends with enforcement. If you're gonna punish people be swift, be firm and make an example of them so the point is proven real quick.

[JC26]

I mean hypothetically let's say that Showtime would have permanently banned the 7 team after the TC allegations and they held another EBR memorial there and a multi time winner of the event wasn't allowed to race it, would racers grasp the magnitude of how serious Showtime was about having a zero tolerance on TC?

[OldSchool+]

Totally agree with where you are coming from, sir. And agreed that I like the folks in that team as well.

But I would suggest that a serious consequence is not as good as deterrent as a high likelihood of being caught.

That is, let's say that car was banned, but if the next guy thinks "they cannot find mine", would it keep them away? Doubt it.

But if there was a device or methodology that could absolutely detect a difference, and the teams knew it, they would remove them.

Annnnnnnd there is not enough car count to lose pretty much anyone.

We want 'em legal, not gone.

Am thinking we need electronics to beat electronics. Unfortunately they are not my strong suit. And this sort of thing is why.

[openwm53]

I mean hypothetically let's say that Showtime would have permanently banned the 7 team after the TC allegations and they held another EBR memorial there and a multi time winner of the event wasn't allowed to race it, would racers grasp the magnitude of how serious Showtime was about having a zero tolerance on TC?

or do you say nothing, and let them take the money and go out and continue to race and win at other tracks ? Jerry you are spot on.


1. Take the time to educate yourselves
2. Find it or at least look
3. When found make an example no matter who it is.

I would make the whole racing community know............

[OldSchool+]

Techs--another idea!

A kind of a dynamometer thing. Two rollers for each rear wheel. A serious brake would need to be applied to those rollers. Either the motor slows or eventually, at high RPM, the tires would spin on the rollers as the brake was progressively applied.

Probably would be a good idea to seriously tie the car down...

Not cheap, nor easy, though. And if the device could be "switched off" for the test, not foolproof either.

[JC26]

or do you say nothing, and let them take the money and go out and continue to race and win at other tracks ? Jerry you are spot on.


1. Take the time to educate yourselves
2. Find it or at least look
3. When found make an example no matter who it is.

I would make the whole racing community know............

I didn't run far enough up front to have a dog in the fight, but as a race fan for my whole life, I hate to see things turning into what they are. Some of these new fancy ways to cheat are just down right expensive. I understand that people are always trying to bend the rules to gain that little bit extra. I could tell you stories for hours of things that my grandfather told me they did when he was racing. But most of it was moving a bar here and there, or swinging for the fence with crazy geometry, and even down to drilling holes in his Floor pan and having a water bottle that he'd dump water on the race track to try and get the guy behind him a little loose. None of that stuff cost the amount that TC does. Its almost like we've gone from a generation of innovative and ingenious cheaters to lazy cheaters with money.

[luke81]

RE: Traction control. Any thoughts on the mechanics of "finding it"?

Dig, look, check and actually know what to see.
Brake systems:
Rules: All brake lines must be run exposed and visible, not wrapped in any material/loom/tape at any point. Brake line may not enter frame rails or any enclosed cavity at any point. Master cylinder must be located in the open for easy inspection. Brake line must be one continuous run from caliper to master cylinder. No bias valves. IF you're dead set on having bias valves then it needs to be installed totally in the open where it can be clearly inspected, because that's where most of your brake control TC is getting integrated.
Throttle sytems: Linkage must be 100% exposed every inch between pedal and carb and easily inspected. Solid linkage only, no cables.

Both: Zero pressurized lines that aren't able to be traced from beginning to end to sensible locations. IE, if you have an oil pressure line screwed into a fitting on the frame rail, that's a problem. Now I have heard that the RaceTronics systems can actually operate on air pressure instead of hydraulic, but if you follow the above I don't think it will be an issue.

Electronic: Good luck. No really, I'm not sure here. How many tech guys can inspect an MSD box at the circuit level and see if the daughter board is the original or one with a TC modded in? How many tech guys cut open a tach to have a look around? These are the things they'll need to do.

Mr Brooks, you're the top tech dude around...how many tachometers have you taken apart?

And these don't even address the Gold Track/True Track type rear ends......

[zerofor]

Seriously, at this point wouldn't it almost make more sense to let the latemodels get as out of hand as they want? Focus the effort more on keeping the sportsman,trucks etc. from becoming just as carried away. I believe it would take far more than the average run of the mill track or tech man can do to police the electronic stuff. The companies that manufacture the stuff could but they aren't going to be the ones to kill the golden goose. Electronic circuitry and circuit boards aren't something you just learn about overnight. I know someone who does it for a living and he is constantly having to take courses to keep up with it.Somebody always has bottomless pockets but the weekly tracks and tech guys don't as a rule.So where does it end when it comes to stopping it?

[OldSchool+]

Well, right now there are two high end series, the Late Models & Modifieds.

You don't suppose the other Series guys know any of those guys?

What about the out of date user manual shown in post #34?

You don't suppose the used TC devices will filter down, or guys will be dropping back a class after their "engine sponsor" buys a (big aced) boat instead, and so on and so forth?

Nope, I would suggest the lid is on the sewer--or it ain't.

[zerofor]

Well leaving the modifieds out was an omission on my part.And realistically you are right,the lid is on or it isn't. Guys will go down in their pockets until they're scratching their toes to win a race that pays twenty bucks to win.But its a whole new playing field here in the twenty first century and it will take just as much money and even more training than it takes to install it to defeat it.Maybe the answer is to start hiring tech guys that have graduated from schools like UNOH etc. just to specifically check for electronic gadgetry. Or form a unified sanctioning body (but I know good luck with that last thought) because the older guys aren't hip to this new crap and the track owners are so paranoid over the thought of banning one car and losing the income that just that one team brings through the gates,most of them aren't even willing to spend money on a decent P.A.system let alone the expense of policing this stuff.