Owners and Promoters--Want to Kill Your Show? Traction Control!

[OldSchool+]

"...a good tech inspector knows what to look for when it comes to Traction Control."--P J

Perhaps yous guys are in fact truly more advanced that we are in this regard.

If you have details--or guys that know precisely what to look for, please pass it along.

You know the channels...

Speaking of which, my latest understanding is that it can be wireless, compounding the difficulty.

My current theory (guess?) is that something that can record sound in extreme slo-mo may be able to detect a cylinder or two dropping out as a car accelerates out of a corner.

That would be great, as the penalty and/or suspension would be up front, and the car could then be torn apart until the owner cried uncle and gave up the device and details.

Check this out, it is fun and possibly some insight on how that could work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TNSUIsjdpY

"They call me 'Tater Salad' "--Ron White

[Phil Jacques]

"...a good tech inspector knows what to look for when it comes to Traction Control."--P J

Perhaps yous guys are in fact truly more advanced that we are in this regard.

If you have details--or guys that know precisely what to look for, please pass it along.

You know the channels...

Speaking of which, my latest understanding is that it can be wireless, compounding the difficulty.

My current theory (guess?) is that something that can record sound in extreme slo-mo may be able to detect a cylinder or two dropping out as a car accelerates out of a corner.

That would be great, as the penalty and/or suspension would be up front, and the car could then be torn apart until the owner cried uncle and gave up the device and details.

Check this out, it is fun and possibly some insight on how that could work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TNSUIsjdpY

"They call me 'Tater Salad' "--Ron White

I wouldn't say we are more advanced up here, but our tech guys at least at Thompson, are very thorough. You guys do have the one and only, Ricky Brooks. IMO, the best Tech guy in the country. I believe Jeff at NSS is a pretty good man also, he also happens to be from up this way. I don't know any of the other tech guys, so I can't judge them, but I definitely don't think we are better or worse. That's all subjective.

No matter if it's "wireless", or not. You are introducing a foreign object into the system. The most popular systems seem to be the Davis Technologies ones, and even then the devices are a little bit bigger than a quarter. A tech inspector that is educated and wants to find it, will find it. I don't care what anyone says. Especially with HEI systems like are run on my car, it's next to impossible to hide. As I said, they took our distributors apart, and inspected all of our wiring and under dash etc.

I will say it again... Traction Control has NO place in our sport. It's too expensive, and IMO, hurts the competition greatly.

[OldSchool+]

Phil,

I am aware of the quality of our tech guys. It isn't about "better or best".

It is about ridding our sport of this stuff, and per Devin McCloud and many others, it seems to be here and they do not seem to be DQing folks for it.

Therefore, either they are willingly giving them a pass (which I do not believe), or more detection information is needed.

As you say, "A tech inspector that is educated and wants to find it, will find it."

If your guys know, have them let our guys know.

[luke81]

If you can install it. Shouldn't someone know exactly where to look ? This is a question because I truly don't know ? My wiring harness only consists of a few wires. Not much to power up on a race car ?

Well...yes and no. A lot of race cars look like rat nests even though there are only a few wires, and I don't think that's not on purpose. A mess will hide things better than a nice clean job. So here's exactly how I would do it: I'd hang a 3 pin plug in plain sight. Power, ground, and tach. The reason for it being there is so I can plug in an extra tach that I can see while I'm up front working on the engine. Seems valid, right? It's perfectly legal to have that, right? Driver rolls out, pops the TC into that plug, and wins. On the cool down he pops it out and collects his trophy.
OR, maybe I wire up a plug that goes to that same connector that I plug my radio into, you know to keep it charged....damn thing keeps dying on me with 2 laps to go. Maybe the TC is modded into my radio, and when I finish I just unplug the radio like you would any other time. Hmm. Maybe....
Or I'd just do it like 99% of TC is currently hidden (in my opinion), I'd just put it inside the tach. Everything I need is already there and when is the last time a tech man disassembled a tachometer?

[openwm53]

I will say it again... Traction Control has NO place in our sport. It's too expensive, and IMO, hurts the competition greatly.[/QUOTE]


Amen! Amen!

[sbracer58]

Maybe. There have been articles in Circle Track in the past that make me wonder how objective they are.

Nobody likes a "rat" and nobody likes to be a rat (at least I certainly don't).

But if the non TC guys can get as much figured as they can, sharing that information, either publicly or privately with tech, might be something to consider.

I believe you're a rat if you use it. NOT a rat if you report it. Everyone knows the rules and if you chose to break them then you deserve to face the consequences. We're not talking about and accidental infraction here, we're talking about deliberate premeditated cheating. Back in the day NASCAR had a few rules that they considered sacred, like messing with the fuel. If you got caught doing that the penalties were far worse. Should be the same deal for using TC. Fine them $5,000, take the equipment and ban them for a year.

The track will say they ban someone they are loosing revenue. I'd argue if someone stinks up the show each week by winning then others stop coming because they can't compete.

[OldSchool+]

Am really hoping there is promise in the slow motion audio recording device.

Think of it--if a track had one set up coming out of turn 4, and it could detect a cylinder dropping out, then that info could be relayed to the starter, who would simply black flag the offender, and penalties & inspections could then immediately take place, even before the end of the event.

Seems like that would about do it regarding ignition.

From there, the only other way to employ traction control would be through the brakes (I think...), and that would seemingly be something that could be spotted.

[OldSchool+]

Calling all Tekkies

Apparently slo mo sound is accomplished by "sound stretching".

Check out this video. Although they are somewhat entertaining, ignore the details.

I will wager that at some "stretch point", the difference between a baseline "normal" exhaust note and one affected by traction control can be detected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPQ92u2P4is

However, I am into mechanical things (cast iron is my favorite), not computer related stuff.

Hopefully this will be a catalyst for further research.

[luke81]

Am really hoping there is promise in the slow motion audio recording device.
Think of it--if a track had one set up coming out of turn 4, and it could detect a cylinder dropping out, then that info could be relayed to the starter, who would simply black flag the offender, and penalties & inspections could then immediately take place, even before the end of the event.
Seems like that would about do it regarding ignition.
From there, the only other way to employ traction control would be through the brakes (I think...), and that would seemingly be something that could be spotted.

But what do you do if you're wrong? In northeast big block mods Billy Decker has long been accused of using TC because his cars just sound so different from the others. The guy can make his foot twitch in a way that nobody else does and he's got the exact right combo of throttle spring and pedal length figured out, but it sounds all the world like he's got TC. He's never once been proven illegal. A guy named Mike Bowman was accused of using TC so much DIRT took his entire electrical system and tested it, they found nothing. He used to kill everyone at Merritville on a super slick track. He claimed it was his foot. One night he accepted the challenge to get in another car and make the sound. A few minutes of adjusting the linkage and spring the way he liked it and he was able to reproduce the sound in someone else's car. 100% legal.
So what do you do if you black flag someone, tear the car apart and never find anything? Sound alone isn't enough to kick someone off the track.

[luke81]

HEA BROOKS want to make $500. Ill pick the car and judge for a free meal.


Put up time


don62

Since I already posted what I'd do it's kind of pointless now, but I'd win every time. Unless you're going to make up rules as you go and DQ me for a plug hanging out with nothing hooked to it, which as far as I can tell is perfectly legal.

[scott bertram]

Maybe a race track should invest in one, and the tech man should test it in a car or 2. I'm sure there would be some people out there willing to test. Record some data. I don't believe it is gonna take a mid pack car and make them a front runner.

you would be surprised, the lap times stay consistent throughout the entire race. while all the non tc guys times will fall off the tc guys will be basically the same on lap 99 as on lap 2.

I have personally witnessed both at nss and adale tc being used without a doubt. When I commented about it on karnac it was avoided like the plague, glad its a topic finally. The upscale devices go into the $8k plus range and are as small as a watch battery.

This is MOST DEFINATLY killing the sport and needs to be addressed.

1 thing I see as a tool to help catch this is the stepper tach by smi. this tach can recall in real time every lap of the race. if it were mandated the tech man could look at each laps rpms in real time to see if there was a spike (wheel spin). I don't care who you are, if you are running pos 1-3 for 100 laps you will have wheel spin at some point. some testing would have to be done to see to what degree the tc kicks in (might be immediate, might be a little delayed) so you know what you are looking for. this is only 1 tool, and not fool proof. the tc guys may have a way to disable tc while racing to get the occasional readout they desire, and still use it for majority of the race.

[OldSchool+]

"Sound alone isn't enough to kick someone off the track."--Luke

I get where you are coming from. Tech sometimes seems...overzealous.

But something has to be done to put a dent in this thing before it turns short track racing into Cup style racing--and if it does, and all shows become as boring as Loudon, I will find something else to do with my Saturday nights. For sure.

So, again, your point: "Sound alone isn't enough to kick someone off the track."

It could be.

I am not married to the slo mo sound idea, it is just the best thing I see at the moment. Give us a better solution, please.

I like Scott's idea, but as he says, it could possibly be compromised.

[luke81]

"Sound alone isn't enough to kick someone off the track."--Luke
I get where you are coming from. Tech sometimes seems...overzealous.
But something has to be done to put a dent in this thing before it turns short track racing into Cup style racing--and if it does, and all shows become as boring as Loudon, I will find something else to do with my Saturday nights. For sure.
So, again, your point: "Sound alone isn't enough to kick someone off the track."
It could be.
I am not married to the slo mo sound idea, it is just the best thing I see at the moment. Give us a better solution, please.
I like Scott's idea, but as he says, it could possibly be compromised.

I agree with ya, I'm just not sure what you really can do. The tech of using and installing traction control is currently way ahead of the technology of finding it.

[fred23]

I'm no electrical engineer but if the most advanced TC is wireless then I would imagine there must be a way to interrupt the radio waves or scrambling signals.

There has to be people that can figure out how to detect it. If they can create it, it can be reversed engineered somehow. Obviously Davis isn't going to tell anyone but there are people just as smart I am sure.

Cheaters are always ahead of the rules......just like PED's in sports. When the prize (NASCAR, NFL, MLB etc...) is as lucrative as it has become, people will try to get there at all costs. With everyone having basically the same technology available as far as engines and set ups are concerned, TC is the X factor.

Luke81.....give me a call, I might need your services......HA

[luke81]

LOL, I am always for sale and I know nothing about anything after.....
So let's recap here:

Davis systems are pretty much all about the RPM and retarding the timing when they see the RPM spike. These are the most easily hidden systems out there. These are purely watching the RPM and when it makes a sudden spike it's assuming the tires slipped, and it causes a misfire by (presumably) grounding the tach wire for an instant. It compares the RPM during the firing of one cylinder vs. the average rate. They claim the system will self-learn for changing track conditions since the average rate will be constantly changing. The systems can be programmed via computer or a small handheld progammer, right over bluetooth.


Racetronics makes various systems, including brake, throttle control and misfire control. Theirs are also easily adjustable although they have a little knob/box looking thing. Racetronics relies on speed via GPS vs. RPM which is probably more accurate than the Davis systems. I really have no idea how you could properly hide these systems, even though they claim they're easily totally hidden. Brake and throttle systems require hydraulic pressure (typically pulled off of the power steering pump or oil pressure) and integration with either the rear brake lines or throttle linkage. I find it hard to believe that any tech inspector with half a clue would be totally incapable of finding those, but then again you you have to look to find.....