It's Soooooo Hard to Slow Down

[scottgarrity07]

Nice and balanced bodywork all the way around.

Good body setback in relation to the wheels, good overall rake, swoopy nose, good graphics.

Old racing saying you no doubt know: "If it looks fast, it probably is".

Thanks, man. We had some fuel delivery issues the first week, so the result was less than we were looking for. Been working hard this week to make it as fast as it looks! Also gotta give props to HERCULES Sealing Products for the much needed sponsor $ and to Brothers Powdercoating for the sexy red urethane paint job!

[Imhere]

Het Matt,
Read the whole thread before you spew your stupidity. Of course the same teams will win. Were talking about making better racing not follow the leader. And for local racing to increase car count by making it affordable for the little guy. Never seen one person try to pretend he knows so much about everything and actually know " nothing about anything " LOL

[Matt Albee]

Het Matt,
Read the whole thread before you spew your stupidity. Of course the same teams will win. Were talking about making better racing not follow the leader. And for local racing to increase car count by making it affordable for the little guy. Never seen one person try to pretend he knows so much about everything and actually know " nothing about anything " LOL

Well het right back atcha. We're ( not were )talking about making racing better for whom? The little guy? Making racing affordable for whom? The guys who can't or don't want to spend money to win? The answer to car counts isn't penalizing the fast guys for winning. The answer isn't taking all technology out of racing so that the guys who don't have it can compete. The answer for the guys who don't win is to keep working on their car and their driving skills until they do. I agree some of the expenses of running a super late seem pretty silly. But until sensible rules are written, the racers are going to use whatever is available.
And above all, the answer to increasing the car count in the faster classes, really all classes, is to offer realistic payouts. That's going to mean tracks going out and finding sponsors.

[OldSchool+]

"The answer for the guys who don't win is to keep working on their car and their driving skills until they do. "--Matt A

Matt, you can work until the cows come home and a big money motor will pass you at NSS.

If the rules were 75 Monte Carlos with exhaust manifolds the good teams and drivers would figure out how to excell. But the up-and-comers would think "hey, I can afford that, and I can drive like that" and build a car.

Filling the field. Filling the grandstand. Keeping the promoter solvent. And providing a venue and a race for next week.

Your additionally mention "But until sensible rules are written...".

That's what dis is all about. What are those rules?

[Matt Albee]

Maybe it's a "big money motor" that passes you, but maybe it's just an engine builder doing a better job than you. The Andersons and Rogers didn't start out on top, they started out where every racer does. They worked very hard, and very smart, and became winners.
Same goes for the engine builders. They didn't start out at the top of their game. They built engines in their garage or tool shed just like every other racer starting out. They kept learning and trying until they succeeded.
The way to increase fan counts is by giving the fans something worth driving to the track for. That's speed, sound, danger, and color. The way to increase car count is increasing payouts.
We've discussed on this board the fact that winning a feature in any class pays, at most, about what it payed 20 years ago. Yet the costs for the racers has gone up a lot in that time. And we're not talking about trick shock packages, we're talking about fuel cell prices, hub and brake prices, chassis prices, body panel prices, etc. Here's an example. Take a look at the NASCAR Cup payouts from 20 years ago vs today. Take a look at WoO payouts from 20 years ago vs today. I think even Tom Curly has increased the payouts a lot over the last 20 years. The payouts have to increase along with costs. They don't have to cover costs, but they have to increase along with costs.

[Phil Jacques]

Well het right back atcha. We're ( not were )talking about making racing better for whom? The little guy? Making racing affordable for whom? The guys who can't or don't want to spend money to win? The answer to car counts isn't penalizing the fast guys for winning. The answer isn't taking all technology out of racing so that the guys who don't have it can compete. The answer for the guys who don't win is to keep working on their car and their driving skills until they do. I agree some of the expenses of running a super late seem pretty silly. But until sensible rules are written, the racers are going to use whatever is available.
And above all, the answer to increasing the car count in the faster classes, really all classes, is to offer realistic payouts. That's going to mean tracks going out and finding sponsors.

Just for my own personal curiosity right now, Do you race? Have you owned cars or do you own cars? What is your connection? Do you have one? Or are you just an opinionated fan. I ask because I truly don't know and can't get a solid read on you sometimes.

[Matt Albee]

Just for my own personal curiosity right now, Do you race? Have you owned cars or do you own cars? What is your connection? Do you have one? Or are you just an opinionated fan. I ask because I truly don't know and can't get a solid read on you sometimes.

I don't race now, i have raced in the past. I don't have any connection to racing right now, though i have sponsored a couple of local guys over the years for a couple of cases of oil or help with tires. Right now i'm an opinionated fan. And i've been an opinionated fan most of my life. You'll find that most of us fans have a very strong opinion regarding the short track scene in Florida.

[Matt Albee]

While i'm thinking about it, what exactly is considered a big money motor? $40,000? $20,000? I'd consider a $10,000 dollar motor to be big money because i don't have $10,000 to put into one. What should a motor cost exactly?
I ask because i think a lot of racers feel that if they can't beat someone, it's got to be because of high dollar motors or pieces. It couldn't possibly be that they just aren't as good at building engines, or just not as good at setting up a chassis, or , god forbid, that they aren't as good a driver. There will always be racers complaining that they're getting beat by money, and by money alone. And it won't make any difference how much money is involved. It will always be used as an excuse.
So back to the question then, what do we consider a big money motor. And what would constitute a small money motor. After all, there are costs involved in going fast. "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go"

[Phil Jacques]

I don't race now, i have raced in the past. I don't have any connection to racing right now, though i have sponsored a couple of local guys over the years for a couple of cases of oil or help with tires. Right now i'm an opinionated fan. And i've been an opinionated fan most of my life. You'll find that most of us fans have a very strong opinion regarding the short track scene in Florida.

Fair enough, just curious because it seems sometimes you are on point with your theories and other times I couldn't disagree more.

One point I would like to make to counter something you mentioned. Making the lower divisions more affordable for the little guy is a good thing and the only way you are going to continue to attract new fans. I agree that in divisions like SLM and PLM, Sprints or other top tier local divisions and series, allowing the technology in is okay, because it bridges the gap between the next step, but the way it is beginning to become, and not just there but everywhere, too much of the top tier technology is seeping too far down the ladder and it needs to stop because it is making it much too expensive. There is no reason in a sportsman, shocks should cost more than 75 to 100 bux each and in Bombers/Pure Stocks/Strickly Stocks or whatever name they go by at whatever track, there is no reason to put a $4000 to $5000 built engine in some of these cars etc. Get what I mean? There is place for everything in racing, but racing is a sport that was built so EVERYONE could be involved, when you start pricing the little guy out, it becomes harder for the sport to grow and thrive. That is a problem FL is having right now. The liberal solution to everything down there is make another division and that's adding to the problem too. As I said in another post, if you simplify things, align rules and create 1 division out of 4 like divisions, it will instantly help in a lot of ways. Guys will bitch and complain but in the end, will comply and build their car to fit to continue running. We have to remember, the little guy built this sport. We have to help them continue to come in because without them it's going to continue to die a slow painful death.

[Phil Jacques]

While i'm thinking about it, what exactly is considered a big money motor? $40,000? $20,000? I'd consider a $10,000 dollar motor to be big money because i don't have $10,000 to put into one. What should a motor cost exactly?
I ask because i think a lot of racers feel that if they can't beat someone, it's got to be because of high dollar motors or pieces. It couldn't possibly be that they just aren't as good at building engines, or just not as good at setting up a chassis, or , god forbid, that they aren't as good a driver. There will always be racers complaining that they're getting beat by money, and by money alone. And it won't make any difference how much money is involved. It will always be used as an excuse.
So back to the question then, what do we consider a big money motor. And what would constitute a small money motor. After all, there are costs involved in going fast. "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go"

I just paid $10,000 for two brand new built engines (primary and backup) that proved last year to keep up with $12000 engines. I think for my division (limited sportsman) $5000 is close to realistic for a built engine. Engine builders (imo) over price engines because they can. There are guys spending 8 or 9k on MINI STOCK engines up here... To me, that is just ridiculous. I'm not a big money guy and I am not a little guy, I am kind of right in the middle. I am more than happy spending $5k for an engine for my level. Anything more is nuts. In a lot of cases, it comes down to machine work in the engines. At tracks like Thompson where I race and New Smyrna there which have long straights, horsepower means just as much as handling in the corners if not a tad more. For reference, my parts bill for one engine is as follows...

$850 pistons
$650 rods
$1200 heads (includes valves springs etc)
$350 cam
$250 crank
$200 pan
$175 intake
$300 for misc bolts gaskets and seals

So roughly about $4000 in parts into my engine and $1000 in labor/machine work (per engine) And I bought top notch parts in every department the best available within our engine rules. There are guys spending 10-12k on one engine in my division that barely make 5hp more than me. Just absolutely insane imo.

[OldSchool+]

"I'd consider a $10,000 dollar motor to be big money because i don't have $10,000 to put into one. What should a motor cost exactly?
I ask because i think a lot of racers feel that if they can't beat someone, it's got to be because of high dollar motors or pieces."--Malbee

You are right--It IS big money. Big money for Phil, for Bob's Sunoco, big money for Daddy Bigbux. I don't care if you are worth a couple mil, $10K is still noteworthy money.

Think about two to four times that.

I will wager that if a motor for a "late model" was $6-8K Garrity would be running a late model.

I have worked with a good team, a winning team, with a winning driver. Smart guys good fabrication, all that. They are out of the sport due primarily to engine costs. And you are right again, not only do they feel they cannot beat big money, they cannot beat big money.

For my 2 cents worth, I don't need big speed, big "color"(?) and small car counts. There is F1 for those that want that, and many do.

I want big car count and close competition.

[scottgarrity07]

If a motor was 6-8k AND Late Models had a tire that lasted 3 races AND stock transmissions AND no bump stops or coil bind AND a $150 shock rule then (sadly never) I would OWN a Late Model. Until then (never) I will run my "affordable Late Model". However I would gladly drive someone elses car under the current rules, LOL!

[OldSchool+]

"I just paid $10,000 for two brand new built engines (primary and backup) that proved last year to keep up with $12000 engines."--PJ

And that is for limited sportsman.

Phil, I realize that you work hard, but "keeping up" is not the same as fighting for the win, particularly for the amount of sacrifice that you put in.

[OldSchool+]

Scott--gotcha, but of course, there are only so many cars.

[Phil Jacques]

"I just paid $10,000 for two brand new built engines (primary and backup) that proved last year to keep up with $12000 engines."--PJ

And that is for limited sportsman.

Phil, I realize that you work hard, but "keeping up" is not the same as fighting for the win, particularly for the amount of sacrifice that you put in.

My engines are plenty capable of getting the job done. I am on par power wise to those guys within 5 or 6hp. That's my point though, they spend stupid money for that extra 5 or 10hp and most of them battle poor handling all the time so they try to make up for it with power.