Price Of Racing

[Bigbuck]

True , three or four car fields are not usually very entertaining . And the solution for tiny classes is pretty simple . Combine ALL classes and run heat races and features according to Qualifying speeds each night . You can have separate classes for trucks and mini-stocks of course , but put all stock cars into one class , one set of rules that cover them all , and 8 or 9 lbs per cubic inch .
The cars compete against each other on speed , not money .

Just couriopus, do you mean run strictly stocksm super stocks and minis together. Guess it could be entertaining, maybe let the strictlys go, run 1/2 a lap or whatever, turn the mini mods loose for a while then the superstocks, yeah, that would be better than 3 races, 3 cars per race, could be finetuned on a weekly basis. Or are you thinking start them all together and award 3 winners, one in each division?

[Mike C]

Not the minis , though that might get pretty entertaining . What i mean is that there would be no more classes . There would just be stock cars . I've seen this discussed on this and other boards , and it makes the most sense of anything i've seen yet . The Pure Stocks , Street Stocks , Sportsman , Late Models , and Super Lates would simply all become one class . With one set of rules to cover them all . Any stock or tube chassis , max 366 cubic inches , any comercially available 4 barrel intake , 9 lbs per cubic inch , 10 inch tires , fuel cell , usual safety rules , etc . All cars qualify every night . Then the cars are divided up into heats and Feature ( maybe even two Features , one for the fastest cars and one for the slower half of the field ) and it all goes according to Q times . Then no more 3 car races . And since you're running according to Q times , you would be racing against cars that are going approx as fast as you are .
Minis , OWM , and trucks should have their own class .

[Tim]

Now we are getting some where...let's be constructive. I will tell you every division I know of in the state of FL with there own rulebook. Add to it and after you give your add on add your total to the combined total at the end of your post. Lets see how many classes and rulebook we have in this state. This is going to be eye opening for and more so for the ones that count I hope. Here goes.....

Super Late
Limited Late
Combined Late
Sportsman
Limited Sportsman
Pro Trucks
Street Stock
Pure Stock
Big Motor Mods
E Mods
Thunder Stocks
Strickly Stocks
Ramblers
Bombers
Hornets

OK I gave that 2 minutes and I'm at 14....now add to it so we can then divide...this is good info!

[Winger]

I assume you're asking for just the asphalt oval track divisions. Here are some more that regularly race. I'm not including the antiques.

Mini-stocks
Modified Mini-stocks
Pro Challenge
Dwarf cars
Florida Outlaw Mods
Mini cups
Champ Kart series
Winged Sprint cars
Wingless Sprint cars (3 different series now)
TQ midgets

24

[Tim]

Keep it going we're at 23! We can do dirt on a different thread after this.

[Winger]

Keep it going we're at 23! We can do dirt on a different thread after this.

Tim,
I decided to separate the sprints so make it 24.

[John Berti]

Yes, there are a lot of divisions which can easily be combined to boost the numbers of cars in the newly created division. Examples: Modified Minis & Mini Stocks. Super Late Models, Limited Late Models & Sportsman. OWM, Limited Modifieds & E Modifieds. Street Stocks, Thunder Stocks, & Pure Stocks. Scramblers, Bombers, & Hornets.

Combine the classes offering bonuses to the lesser division cars as they race within the division. Example: First three Mini Stock finishers within a Modified Mini feature get bonus money on top of the regular position payoff. This could be done in all the other examples I have cited.

The problem with so many of the tracks in Florida is they have far too many divisions. There are some tracks running as many as 10 divisions on any given night. To my way of thinking that is splitting the pie in far too many pieces. There should not be more than four divisions racing at any track on any given night. The divisions should be comprised of top divisions like Late Models and Open Wheel Modifieds, a mid level division like Street Stocks or Thunder Stocks, and an entry level like Scramblers, Bombers or Hornets. When traveling series are brought in the other divisions should be run on a feature only basis with the starting line ups based on the three prior week's performances in a handicapping fashion.

[Boneman]

I've been in mini stocks for 20+ years, but I'm at the end of my rope with the expense. We can only run antique engines. A competitive piece is twice as much money as a crate V8.

I like the tube frame mini stock cars, but the engines are killing the class. How about this: run any car, but in addition to the current engines, allow modern engines, either 4 or 6 cylinder with minimal modifications. Adjust with weight as necessary, but it won't take long for the old expensive engines to get used up.

[Bigbuck]

"I've been in mini stocks for 20+ years, but I'm at the end of my rope with the expense"


There you go Rex, even though you dont like it, we agree..........Make it more affordable to race, thus MAYBE 5 car fields become 8 car fields, still not enough, but headed in the right direction right. There are other ways to keep more racers and to get more to return, but most tracks don't want to hear it. They.re in the gas and tire business and that is killing racing more than "expensive engines" In my humble opinion, the mini-stock Div is in ruins. They cost almost as much to build as a late model, Why? The tracks allowed you guys to keep doing this, doing that to the point they had to make a division that was already strugling when it WAS Mini-STOCK. Now you call yourselves what, mod minis? 2 divisions 4 cars in each one. Not you owners fault, you're just trying to come up with something that makes you just a LITTLE better than the next guy, and if tech allows you to do it, who's fault is it? Just my opinion.

[Boneman]

We had a FASCAR rules meeting a few years ago, and I suggested modernizing the rules to allow EFI, multi-cam, multi valve, etc. There are lots of stock engines that make comparable power to our antiques, the Quad 4 for example. Everyone in that room looked at me like I was from outer space and didn't want to discuss it at all.

No rules were changed, costs continued to rise, and many of those racers are on the sidelines now.

[Tim]

Without thinking it through I will tell what first comes to mind..and I might be way wrong. The quad 4 stock produces just about the same horsepower. How much horsepower does it produce after the engine builder gets done tweaking it? Can you tech it? And now in order to compete every racer has to take their stock motor to the builders to get them tweaked only now you have a motor with 2 cams, more valves, ect. You wind up with a motor even more expensive than you already have. Again I may be wrong but that is the problem I saw at first thought. As far as EFI goes, we have enough trouble checking MSD boxes, can you imagine EFI?

[Mike C]

Before costs for new mini stock rules can be calculated , someone would need to write those new rules . And hopefully the writers would be engine builders who are very familier with import engines .
As for teching the newer imports , hire a tech man who does nothing but imports . Let him ( or her ) handle the mini and modified mini stocks eclusively until the tech procedures have been developed and refined . Then teach the other techs how to do it . Double overhead cam 4 cyls. are teched every weekend all over the world . It wouldn't cause all that much of a problem .
As to EFIs , there is a variety of scan equip. available for tech , and the instructions on what to look for . Remember , there are numerous race series world wide that use 4 cyl. overhead cam/ EFI engines , tech info and knowhow is out there , just have to ask for it . Computerized engines aren't any big mystery unless you haven't been exposed to them .

[Mike C]

As to the costs involved in building late model minis and mod minis , they may not require as much work or money to go fast as you might think . Some of the import cars really haul the mail in stock form . They might not require a lot of modification to be competitive with some of the current mod mini engines .

[Tim]

Anything that is produced as "stock" comes from a mold. Because all are mass produced, there are many molds that they come from. No two molds are the same. Therefore the manufacturer takes the largest mold, adds a couple thousands to it in case of error and calls it "the tolerance". Anyone with the money and will to win will absolutely take advantage of "the tolerance".

Yes, they do run these engines everyday in all parts of the world, but the racers goings to the race already know what they have to do to compete. I'd rather tell everyone up front what can be done than sell this thing a a "stock" rule.

Your better off coming up with an after market sealed/spec 4 cyl carb motor that required set parts for the engine builders to use. The expense in the engine business is the machine work...Aftermarket manufacturers now have already done the CNC work and the parts are far closer "in tloerance" than anything stock and cost very little more. This is how the sealed/spec has taken over the racing industry. Equal HP at half the price. I don't know if it works for the 4cyl but I'm sure because we have had this conversation someone will go to work on it now...again this is being very constructive...keep it going!

[Boneman]

It could be done with a "sealed" spec engine, or it could be done with an open approach to "stock" modern engines. Racers will take advantage of either approach, so any change will require some tech savy and effort by the track.

Consider spec Miata in SCCA; those cars are powered by stock engines are indestructable, powerful and require very little maintenance. I have not been involved with SCCA for a year or two, but they always drew huge fields of 40-60 cars in this single class.

Its become a moot point for me. I plan to transition out of minis into an E mod with a crate engine.