I think I'm done with racing....

[ocalasp76]

Age ???

I'm 60, and this past year I've driven with drivers half my age.
My thoughts are if you give a rough driver enough horsepower, he will take himself out. Trouble being he will take out someone else too(as was done to me) I even told him to go back to bumper cars at Busch Gardens to have fun.
I've also driven with some teenagers who were better drivers than their fathers. Seat time is the key to driving in a particular division. Jumping from a kart to a SLM is not a good idea.
Seat time and working your way up makes the other older drivers on the track a little more confident in his ability.JMHO.

Just for the record: The very first circle track car I ever drove was a SLM at Ocala. I was a sponsor and they let me do some Hot laps. I hugged the bottom line and parked in the turns. A year later I bought a used sportsman converted figure 8 car and got a years seat time. I am still having fun 9 years after driving that SLM.

SEAT TIME is the key. Don't get on the track in a fast class without it.
-JIM-

[fastlanefan]

Young drivers

Most parents put their children in racing at an early age thinking that they can get a Nascar contract, what most parents don't know is that those Nascar contracts don't come from experience they come from money. A parent has to be able to purchase a ride from a Nascar team. So put your child out there in the super fast late models and then don't complain when he or she can't use their brain to make the quick decision they need to avoid seriously injuring or killing someone else but then don't say "he's just a kid". You are putting them in an adults race and then they should be treated and expected to react as an adult. I have been involved in racing since the early 70's and none of your young drivers that you take to the track daily to practice impress me. As far as Matt Martin, he just didn't have the talent, his daddy just had the money. We went to Charlotte and watched him in the bandeleros and he kicked and screamed about someone being faster. So that showed his maturity.

[mr south 59]

OJ, I guess you aren't getting what I said in my first post. All kids aren't created equal. You can try and twist around what everybody says like, the maturity thing, and take it out of context. We all know that we were talking about age(maturity).

I feel just like all of you do about these kids with these rich daddies with about a million dollars, not joking, in the hauler, a couple of cars, a full crew, ect, ect. Obviousily you don't really know about me and Dustin. I guess you haven't seen us at the track. That is why I don't like people judging these kids because of their age just like they judged Dustin when he started racing LM's. There are some of us parents that made our kids work for it.. How are you to judge thier ability. The race track will do that.


A few years ago on the old board I gave a list of some of Dustin friends that heading to the top. You guys said that none of them should be in a car. Now 1(Jake) is UARA Stars Champion, 1 (Trevor) is setting poles in Nationwide, and 1(Chris) is Dirt National champion, and 2 more (Drew and Dustin) were 1 and 2 in ASA. They are all 19 or under. Should we really have held our kids back just because they weren't 16. Get real. If they are not ready the race track will show it not their birth certificate.

[Osmosis Jones]

And a bigger sigh.......

You know....you just don't get it.

You want to bring your son into every post you make and then get upset when people make comments about him.

I had written up a response to your "all aren't created equal" post earlier today but I deleted it because I had to leave the house before it was finished. In it, I was using your son as an example of the exception to the rule. How some kids are born with racing in their blood and have grown up in and around the sport. Obviously Dustin came into LM racing with a much broader sense of the whole picture than most of the teenagers I am talking about. From your posts, anybody should be able to deduce that you guys are not a high dollar team and have worked hard to get where you are. I both like and ADMIRE that fact about you guys. I really do.

But....

Please....for all and anything that I disagree with you about, please stop listing over and over the list of karting and road racing accolades he has earned.
I concede the point all ready!
I readily admit he is a former world/national/universal karting champion and has/currently? worked with a team that races Porsches on lefty/righty courses. Hell, I think we ALL can admit that by now. It really doesn't make your argument any stronger with me because I really couldn't care less about road racing Porsches or former karting championships. I don't equate either of the two with short track racing full size cars. That will probably touch off another major issue but I don't care.
I can say it's cool that he has done these things but they really don't have any weight in the point I made in my earlier post.

BUT!.....

I can GUARANTEE you that no one at a ALMS(American Lemans Series - I had to look it up) track will know who OJ is. Can almost go 99% on that one. But are you really telling me that this is how you want to judge maturity levels? A popularity contest for how many "world class" drivers (and that's by your definition, BTW) give out a cordial greeting? Hmmm....I'll bet if I wore my hat sideways and put my name on my shirt I'll bet I could get a few to say "Waz up, J"....maybe I'll carry around some Grey Poupon.....

How did I take your quote about maturity "out of context"? I quoted your statement by cut and paste BTW so would get it verbatim but then I fixed your "ot" to "to".....nevermind....anyways, I said maturity meant reaching full development. I never mentioned at what age this was going to happen. You seem to think ability is a replacement for maturity(age as you say). You said earlier that Dustin taught you how to weld. So....using your own logic...you could go to the nearest metal fabrication shop and hire on as a fully certified welder? You know how to weld right? How about aluminum? Mig and Tig? Can you do a certifiable stitch weld on a piece of water pipe under water? If you can then that's great. It means you've reached a higher maturity level as a welder and can accept the challenges of a difficult and demanding job. Me? I can Mig weld pretty damn good with my old Miller 35 and I learned how to Tig weld aluminum when I worked for a guy who repaired airplane cylinder heads one summer. But I know that I don't know enough about welding to dive in over my head at a metal fabrication shop. I'm mature enough to know I'm not good enough for that.

Okay....moving on to your last statement.
Now who is taking things out of context?
We "all" (your words) never said these kids should not be in race cars. We "all" said that we thought they would learn and mature (there's that word again) faster and more completely as racers (not drivers...racers...) if they started out in a lower division. You keep thinking "we" don't want them around at all. We "all" feel an appropriate age to be allowed to race something as dangerous and volatile as a LM stock car would be 16. You think a 12 year old and a 16 year old are no different in mind or ability. We "all" seem to think parents should buy a clue and realize the risk they are putting their kids into. You apparently think it's just the same as a smarter than average kid being bumped up a class in school or even a nine year old attending college. "We" seem to think that the race track is an inanimate object incapable of "judging" anything about anybody or anything. You feel the racetrack will somehow provide the divine answer through.....dare I say it.....

.....osmosis.

[Todd McCreary]

You feel the racetrack will somehow provide the divine answer through.....dare I say it..........osmosis.


man. you've been waiting a long time to fit that into a conversation, haven't you?

[mr south 59]

My son is the only one that I can speek for. All's I here from you guys is that 13 year old kid. No name. No stats. Just that daddy bought jr a LM and took him racing and he ain,t even old enough to drive. It don't work like that. Daddy don't just through jr into a LM. They got there from somewhere.

[Frasson118]

"Frasson, tell me this. Would you feel more comfortable with 20 year old johnie who has never driven anything on a track starting his first LM race next to YOUR kid. He does meet the age requidement"

On this point, again, the racetrack itself has a lot of the resposibility in this. New drivers of ANY age should be required to start in the back until they prove themselves to not be a rolling hazard for everyone else. From the back, at least he won't be taking someone else out. And if by chance, he DID start next to your son on the back row, I assume you have the confidence in your son to be able to outrace & avoid this guy who has neither experience or a clue. Passing slower cars IS part of the deal... that's why it is racing, not just fast cars going in circles.

"Or would you feel better if 15 year old Dustin with 10 yrs karting and Fastruck experiance starting in his first LM race next to YOUR kid"

I wouldn't feel comfortable starting next to a 15 year old (by the way, wasn't he 13 when he started in LM's), no matter WHOSE kid it is. I don't give a damn if he is your son, Bill Elliotts kid, or Billy Bigleys... the fact is that he's still a 13 year old. And he's still emotionally and logically immature. As OJ pointed out, maturity and experience are NOT the same thing.

Another point I'd like to make (not taking anything away from Dustins abilities... this is just for arguements sake)... wouldn't he still have been an excellent racer if he started at 16 rather than 13? What advantages has he gotten in racing by starting that young? Is he on track for that big Nascar contract? Are there things he has accomplished, that would NOT have happened for him if he were 3 years older?

The mentality of these "Little League" thinking parents, is that they need their kid to be in an ARCA or Camping World car by the time they are 16, or they will never make it to Nascar.

Face it... checkbooks and connections are FAR more imortant in making it to the top than talent is. If it was based on talent, Jeff Choquette might have made it, while punk-ass Steven Wallace gets to tear up half of the field on a weekly basis, just because he's Rusty's kid. Kyle Petty ran ONE RACE in his LIFE before being handed a Nascar team. Davey Allison made it to the top, not because he was Bobby's kid, but because he worked his ass off, was successful wherever he went, did it on a relatively small budget... and if you recall, HE didn't start racing at 13 years old!

"Try to answer trulfully. I did"

I always do... no matter who agrees and who doesn't. My opinions are just that... opinions. Better yet, they are educated opinions... not just spewing off at the mouth just for the sake of speaking. It don't mean I'm right, but I'm NOT just some idiot that can't keep my trap shut!

[Frasson118]

"Daddy don't just through jr into a LM. They got there from somewhere"

You're right... they got there from somewhere:

Karts, Quarter Midgets, Bandaleros, and Legends are the most common place that these kids "came from". Do you honestly think that running these cars is even remotely comparable to a full-blown LM?

[Andy S]

The more I re-read this thread the more I realize that there are two seperate arguments being made here. To quote Jurassic Park:

"You were too busy thinking about if you could, that you never stopped to think about if you should."

I think that's what is getting lost in this - there are kids in their teens out there who can handle a very fast racing car, but for most of those kids out racing at local tracks the question is less whether they can hold their own out there, but much more whether they should even be put into that situation by their parents.

[Edm]

Look at it from this perspective. Everybody wants their kids to be famous, I understand that. They push them to become adults at an early age and never get to be just kids. Brittney Spears is a good example. Never got to be a teenager and now she is more messed up then a football bat. Then you have somebody like Jay Middleton, talented, decent guy but getting completely out of racing because... not real sure why, possibly burned out, too old to make it big? Damn shame. Most of these kids dont do ANYTHING on there cars. They have no concept of money, no respect for anyone and just dont care because daddy deep pockets will buy them a new one while they are stuffed in their room playing X-box. Most dont know these cars cost real money. Lets get back to reality and make them work their way up so they can learn what hard work and dedication is. You put a kid in an ill handling super stock, mini stock, sportsman, and truck for a couple of years and I will guarantee they will be a better and safer late model driver when they come of age.

[Osmosis Jones]

Great posts guys.....

Andy....great quote...."You were too busy thinking about if you could, that you never stopped to think about if you should."....I love it.

Puts the whole thing inmto perspective without somebody going in to a big long-winded post.......oh.....oops......

Anyways, it made me think of a few things that I might post later when I have a minute....

Frass.....you've done it now, buddy.....Mr South believes that go-carts are infinitely harder to drive and control than a Late Model. If I remember right...."Late Models are like slow motion compared to a go-cart" I may not have the quote exact....maybe ModTodd can research it for us....he was in on that debate. Get ready to RUUUUUMMMMBBBLLLLEEEEEEEE!!!

[Andy S]

Andy....great quote...."You were too busy thinking about if you could, that you never stopped to think about if you should."....I love it.

Puts the whole thing inmto perspective without somebody going in to a big long-winded post.......oh.....oops......

I think that quote has become my motto in life, as it applies in so many settings. I've lost count of the times I've used it at work...

[mr south 59]

Frasson

I assume you have the confidence in your son to be able to outrace & avoid this guy who has neither experience or a clue. Passing slower cars IS part of the deal... that's why it is racing, not just fast cars going in circles.

With out a dought. Racing ASA we have this at every race and we have dealt with it at every level of racing form karting to LM's.

wouldn't he still have been an excellent racer if he started at 16 rather than 13? What advantages has he gotten in racing by starting that young? Is he on track for that big Nascar contract? Are there things he has accomplished, that would NOT have happened for him if he were 3 years older?

No he just turned 15 when he started LM's. Started in Fastkids at 13 and it helped alot. Dustin WAS ready to move up after 8 years of karting, driving some at Clewstion in a mini stock and a street stock a few times we decided on trucks. It was either wait 3 years to move up to the next level of kerting or do stock car racing. About the deal. We don't shoot farther than we can see but we are working on a deal with an international candy company for next year starting with the Snowflake as teammate to your favorate LM driver in your post. If you noticed lately the same name acrossed his hood is acrossed my hood. About acomplishments. He was the first "kid" (under 16) in the 40 yr history of the World Series of Asphalt to win a feature. That was BIG yor us. He can say he won a LM feature at 15. He couldn't have done any of this if he had waited until 16.



I always do... no matter who agrees and who doesn't. My opinions are just that... opinions. Better yet, they are educated opinions... not just spewing off at the mouth just for the sake of speaking. It don't mean I'm right, but I'm NOT just some idiot that can't keep my trap shut!

I still don't beleive that you really answered my question. I asked what one you would feel "more" comfortably with not if you felt comfortable. But thats ok.

[mr south 59]

Mr South believes that go-carts are infinitely harder to drive and control than a Late Model. If I remember right...."Late Models are like slow motion compared to a go-cart" I may not have the quote exact.

OJ, before I continue with this discussion with you I will have to ask you just how much experiance you have in an Unlimited Allstar kart and a Late Model? Or do you even know anybody that has experiance both? Because if you don"t have any experiance in both how can what you say have ant truth to it. I have won Unlimited Allstar races.

And try not to totally twist it around like you did the welding thing. You got of no a rant on that one. But I'm sure you won't be able to.

[mr south 59]

This wasn't about Dustin. Like I said in my first post I wanted to use him as an example. He is an example of what hundreds of kid are brought up like in racing. Andy mentioned that he heard a lot of teenagers at NNS. Andy do you know anything about those kids racing back ground? What series they came from or how many different types of vehicels they have raced or do you just know their age? I was using my son so you could understand how some of these kids got to LM's. I brought my son up thru the ranks the way I thought was the best for my son. But when ever I mention Dustin in one of my post I get the remarks from the peanut gallery. The guy who started this post wouldn't even mention the kids name that he started this about. He knows his name but alls he says he shouldn't be racing. We had our car in that race and he did fine. I was more worried about some of the veterans. How does the guy that started this post know if that guys kid was ready to start that race. He doesn't. But that kids father did. And the kid did fine. I'm pretty sure that by the rules these kids are legal to race.