Something New

[centralflarich]

Went to Auburndale last night and during the Super Late Model feature they used a cone at the flagman stand during a caution. They would put the cone down once the running order was determined and it looked like if the car running 3rd on back if they went to the outside of the cone they could advance their position. Can someone explain that new rule of racing?

[OldSchool+]

Rich,

After being befuddled myself, I believe you are precisely correct.

There have been those that disagree, but IMO it is difficult to pass on the outside at that venue, and the cone thing is there to provide the drivers with a choice.

I kind of liked it. What is your take?

And how was the rest of the show?

--thx!

[Boneman]

I've seen that at Citrus a few times and liked it. It rewards a driver for rolling the dice and getting after it! I bet almost all of the fans, and all of the aggressive drivers like it.

[scottgarrity07]

It's not really new they have been using it at Bowman-Gray Stadium for years.

Personally I hate it and will not race anywhere they use it. From a philosophical point of view I don't think it's "racing" to be able to pass cars and advance your position under yellow. From a real world point of view I have seen it needlessly tear up race cars and cause wreckfests. It is probably the main reason the FUPS Sportsman Series went from 26 cars to 7 cars in 4 races (when there WAS a series). What was happening was cars that had no business or ability to run up front were jumping to the outside under yellow then chopping their way to the bottom on the restarts (whether they were clear or not). This caused massive carnage. Nobody was staying in the high groove. They just used this rule as a cheap way to gain positions they didn't deserve, with disastrous results. Nothing was done to penalize the "choppers". If your track is one groove then do something about it. Traction treatment in the high groove, high groove practice only, etc. This is a gimmick that doesn't belong in racing IMO. I've never seen it work, but when I've heard of it working it was because of a small field (more room to scatter, less yellows for restarts). Even when it does work it results in the same cars winning every week (easy path to the front by passing under yellow). Also if you toilet someone and are sent to the rear you can gain it all back in one or two position grabs on the outside come "cone time". Kinda takes the teeth right out of rough riding penalties. Idiots claim "you don't have the balls to run the outside". Balls don't enable you to "run the outside", driver skill, a good setup and more importantly, a track condition conducive to it does. "Balls" don't pony up thousands of dollars and man hours to fix needlessly torn up race cars. There's nothing wrong with "double file" restarts because the cars racing for position "belong" where they are and run and race accordingly. Cone (or hooligan) restarts are bad for a racing community that is struggling with car counts. Sorry for the rant, but this is something I am passionate about and adamantly against.

[OldSchool+]

Thx for the tore-up-stuff perspective, Scott.

The one night saw the cone restarts I was there for the multiple-ending-event, everything you say is true.

Ironically, at least at that time, if someone "was" spun out, he was generally put back in his (or her) position, and the guy on the low side was put in the back.

Kinda like situation one caused situation two, and then the guy that stayed in line was penalized.

That evening, there was a LOT of front to back and back to front jockeying, so it was interesting.

But you are correct, fixing the issue would be a better way to go.

[centralflarich]

Something New

Rich,

After being befuddled myself, I believe you are precisely correct.

There have been those that disagree, but IMO it is difficult to pass on the outside at that venue, and the cone thing is there to provide the drivers with a choice.

I kind of liked it. What is your take?

And how was the rest of the show?

--thx!

That was the first time I saw that so I really can't give an opinion as far as the rest of the show only having 11 late models is hard to watch then with about 30 laps left to run some of them wanted to pick their own position and the rest of the classes had small car count also.

[dave41]

outside

It's not really new they have been using it at Bowman-Gray Stadium for years.

Personally I hate it and will not race anywhere they use it. From a philosophical point of view I don't think it's "racing" to be able to pass cars and advance your position under yellow. From a real world point of view I have seen it needlessly tear up race cars and cause wreckfests. It is probably the main reason the FUPS Sportsman Series went from 26 cars to 7 cars in 4 races (when there WAS a series). What was happening was cars that had no business or ability to run up front were jumping to the outside under yellow then chopping their way to the bottom on the restarts (whether they were clear or not). This caused massive carnage. Nobody was staying in the high groove. They just used this rule as a cheap way to gain positions they didn't deserve, with disastrous results. Nothing was done to penalize the "choppers". If your track is one groove then do something about it. Traction treatment in the high groove, high groove practice only, etc. This is a gimmick that doesn't belong in racing IMO. I've never seen it work, but when I've heard of it working it was because of a small field (more room to scatter, less yellows for restarts). Even when it does work it results in the same cars winning every week (easy path to the front by passing under yellow). Also if you toilet someone and are sent to the rear you can gain it all back in one or two position grabs on the outside come "cone time". Kinda takes the teeth right out of rough riding penalties. Idiots claim "you don't have the balls to run the outside". Balls don't enable you to "run the outside", driver skill, a good setup and more importantly, a track condition conducive to it does. "Balls" don't pony up thousands of dollars and man hours to fix needlessly torn up race cars. There's nothing wrong with "double file" restarts because the cars racing for position "belong" where they are and run and race accordingly. Cone (or hooligan) restarts are bad for a racing community that is struggling with car counts. Sorry for the rant, but this is something I am passionate about and adamantly against.

set your car up for outside, too many rooters in racing now. follow the leader and root is not racing.

[Don Nerone]

The cone is new but the rule has been tried many times. Its a twist to a dubble file restart. Leaves the driver with the option. the 2 place can stay inside if he wants. if no one goes the lase place cold advance to 2nd..It was any cars option to go to the outside lane. the cone would keep them in order. good idea

don62

[scott bertram]

I like it and hate it at the same time, it is great for the show, great for guys willing to take a gamble. at the same time I think it needs to be tweaked..... if you are sent to the tail especially for rough driving I think that person should start at the tail on the inside only, otherwise what does the penalty accomplish? you might as well have an all out no holds bar race (kinda like the Billie Harvey memorial race was.) all in all.... good rule that needs some tweaking imo

[scottgarrity07]

set your car up for outside, too many rooters in racing now. follow the leader and root is not racing.

Yup, that's what I said, to run the outside you need driver skill, A GOOD SETUP, and a track condition conducive to it. I don't believe there's some magical "high groove set up" though. If your car is handling real well and better than the guy in front of you then you should be able to work the high line and get around him. But let's not kid ourselves, some tracks are better than others for being able to do this. I agree, rooting ain't racing (and I don't use that move) but neither is chopping or passing cars under yellow.

And Don, you admit if no one goes to the top on a cone start then the last place guy can move to the front row. Explain to me how this is a "good idea" to have a car like that in the front of the field on a restart when the field is bunched up???

It's a gimmick that is supposed to somehow make up for a crappy one groove track condition. Replacing rooting with chopping is not somehow better. Higher speed racetracks, even if the outside isn't that great always create passing lanes due to greater corner entry speeds.

Bottom line, look at the tracks that run "cone restarts" and look at the ones that don't. That should tell you all you need to know...

[Phil Jacques]

They play that cone crap up here from time to time. Any time it's done, a shit show follows. It's almost as bad as the full field inverts they have been doing here lately. Putting the slow underfunded guys up front may seem like a great idea for them, but it really isn't in the long run imo

[Jimmy McKinley]

They play that cone crap up here from time to time. Any time it's done, a shit show follows. It's almost as bad as the full field inverts they have been doing here lately. Putting the slow underfunded guys up front may seem like a great idea for them, but it really isn't in the long run imo

Just out of curiosity, why is it a "s*** show"? We did full-field inverts for *years* at Tampa, St. Pete, Bradenton, and Inverness with the fast guys starting in the back every week, even in the heat races. It made for great *RACING* to watch Scarborough, Childers, Pletcher, Cope, and them guys come from the back of a 30+ car field every week inside of 30 laps. They all used the top groove all the time. Every once in a while, one of the "underfunded" guys would grab a heat win, and even a feature win. I hate seeing the same guys start up front, even with a "6" invert, and winning week after week.

[scottgarrity07]

I guess it would all amount to the respect that everyone had for each other. I'm not a fan of the cone deal for the reasons I stated, but a full field inversion could be awesome (as it sounds like it was back in the day). And yes, using the high groove would be the way for a fast guy to get to the front. I absolutely love moving to the high groove when everyone is bottled up down low and in that circumstance it almost doesn't matter how good the top side is because it's all about MOMENTUM. I agree, starting the fast guys up front all the time just leads to an "el stinko" show for the fans. And with the slower guys all together at the front nobody would be that much faster then the next guy so nobody would be hammering his bumper. I'm interested too, Phil, as to why the full field inversion led to a bad show. I remember something like this was used for the Sportsman race at the Red Eye at NSS in January and everybody raved on here about what a great race it was. I mean isn't that what it's all about for drivers AND fans? Passing cars? Good point/question, Jimmy.

[dave41]

rear starts

Just out of curiosity, why is it a "s*** show"? We did full-field inverts for *years* at Tampa, St. Pete, Bradenton, and Inverness with the fast guys starting in the back every week, even in the heat races. It made for great *RACING* to watch Scarborough, Childers, Pletcher, Cope, and them guys come from the back of a 30+ car field every week inside of 30 laps. They all used the top groove all the time. Every once in a while, one of the "underfunded" guys would grab a heat win, and even a feature win. I hate seeing the same guys start up front, even with a "6" invert, and winning week after week.

we always had to start in the rear because of the points system. I suppose that system isn't used any more. finish in top 3 weekly you start at rear

[Phil Jacques]

Scott NAILED it with one word... RESPECT

Here is my perception of the BIGGEST problem in racing today.... It's KIDS... Specifically kids who were brought up in a racing family and had everything handed to them. I personally have had to bust my ass off for everything I have, and every bit of knowledge I possess which I admit is not even close to some of those on this forum, and then Friday and Saturday I show up at the track and see these 17 year old kids with Late Models and Modifieds standing around with their thumb up their ass while their dad busts his ass on the car while the kid is on his cell phone or socializing...

When I was a kid, I would have given ANYTHING to have a father or relative in general in racing so I could spend every waking hour possible in the shop. Half of these kids have no respect for what they have. Respect to me, starts off the track and it begins with working on your own car. Once you understand what it takes to get these cars ready, and even more once you know what it's like to have to pay for them, you look at things quite differently. I am sure many guys here can relate to having to work their ass off to have the nice race cars they do be it a Modified, Sportsman, or even a Street Stock.

A lot of the kids in racing today don't seem to care because they don't have to work on the cars. They have no regard for the damage they cause by roughing up a guy. It's something I see a lot at the 10-15 tracks I visit per year... And it's quite honestly depressing. I'm not saying they are all like that, because I know some who work just as hard as anyone. But there are a lot.