asked why?

[racin4ever]

Dd38

You need to get a car or read the rules "ALL" Super Engines run a 1.050 restrictor unless that rule has been changed, or may choose to run a 4412 2 bbl..You can find the rules on the FUPS site at newsmyrnaspeedway.org. And yes a Super Spec does make 485 at least that is what ours makes on a "very" reliable dyno. Lets say for sake of argument the Super Spec made 500 is a 150 lb penalty enough..I think it is more than enough.

[Bigbuck]

All these numbers, and I dont have a dog in this fight and don't want one. So is the guy illigal or not? i still say on a track like Orlando it takes a LOT of hp to overcome a superior handeling car. The only real fair way is to run the same cars aginst the same cars. Just me, the only thing I. Like about FUPS is it makes a HALF decent field, not great but decent. But what choice is there, 5-6 in each class is no good either.

[dd38]

I do have a rule book and a car. I Have a steel head engine that on a good day may make 550. Put a plate on it and it dies. So why would I run against a spec engine that makes 620 plus without a plate and put the same plate on it. No way is it going to equal it to mine. Still gonna have a 50-60 HP advantage with a spec. They need to, the specs, back on a 390 carb like they were suppose to run originally.

[jeff 28]

been reading yalls responses,no were in my post did i complain about the rules,i know we can run with any super out there.we treat or try to treat everyone at the track with respect and expect that in return,if we complained about the supers we would be told to go work on our car,they complain and tech is rite in our pits,if i wanted to be cused out and called names id stay at home,lol,as for tim,benny i own the 28 dodge,spend my money to go racing,sean has been driving for me many years,we are used to being the under dogs,showing up on open trailer,but we come to win,we dont complain,or quit. u must not know us to well,weve raced at over 30 different tracks up down the east coast,never been treated like that before,didnt even get a call from series to hash things out,maybe thats good dont want to hear a bunch of whinning,from grown men.see yall in victory lane jeff

[openwm53]

No

I complained about the different rule books for the same type of car........And I rest my case......

[mr south 59]

Jeff. You guys are stand up guys. We have run at almost all of those tracks up the east coast together. It is not you complaining about the rules. It is me. I am the only one that will stand up and voice my opinion about what Fups has done to the crates in Florida. I know that we can run with them on the smaller tracks. But I don't think you or me stands a chance on the bigger tracks. So why run the series if you don't stand a chance at the championship.

Tim ask if I have run with Fups. The answer would be no. I haven't yet. When they wrote the rules they made my car illegal. It has cost me almost 4k to make it legal for Fups. It is ready to go now but I won't take it to a race that I know that we have no chance at winning but I did plan on running a few races on the smaller tracks but I guess I know have to worry about being teched out now. I would like to ask tim the same thing. Where is your car that you study the rules so much for?

Jeff. See ya that the track real soon.

P.S. I did want to run Orlando this week but I can't take off Fri, Sat, Sun, And Monday because it is a long weekend but we will do it soon.

[mr south 59]

WTF are you talking about? The PASS series is THE top Super Late Model series in the country. They DO allow crates to run with them with a weight break....do they now have a crate series that I don't know about??? If they do then no $hit they dont allow the supers to run with them....

What am I missing here?

Easy there Tim. The PASS series a pro late model series. Not a super late model series. They run LLM motors and crates. I think that is the part you are missing. They do have super chassis but not super motors. If you haven't noticed. I know the rules and UNDERSTAND them. I haven't run a PASS race in a few years Tim, but this the engine part of the PASS rule book at the races I was at. They don't allow the $30k super motors. And no restrictor plates either. Tim have you ever run a PASS race. Just wondering.....




*
*
10.4 Car Weights
*
All cars weights listed are race ready with driver, full of fuel, oil and water before race.
*
Maximum left side weight percentage for ALL cars will be 57% before, during and after event with NO allowances in any form.
*
All weights are based of ABC body and perimeter chassis.
*
2700 lbs : GM 400 fast burn crate engine in sealed produced form GM#88958604 *(Engine option #5)
*
*
2750 lbs : 2 barrel Engine option. *Maximum 10.99 to 1 compression Wet or Dry sump. Steel head engine only. ( Engine option #2)
*
*
2800 lbs : 4 barrel Engine option. Wet or Dry sump. Steel head or 9 to 1 engines. (Engine options * *#1 and #3)
*
Added engine weight options…
*
Add 50 lbs. * : Cam change option GM Fast burn 385/400 and ZZ4 (engine option 4)
Add 50 lbs. * : *Ford 347 McGunegill #425 LM engine (engine option 5)
Add 50 lbs. * : . Engine option maximum 13.99 to 1 compression Wet or Dry Sump. (engine option #2)
Add 25 lbs. * : Roller lifter cam (engine options #1, #2).
*
*
The following are available options that are permitted in competition with established weight adjustments as listed below.
*
Add 25 lbs * : Straight rail chassis
Add 25 lbs * : 99-03 non ABC template body
Add 75 lbs * : Down force non ABC body
Add 75 lbs : Outlaw Wedge body( Limited usage as detailed under 10.3 w of body rules.
Add 25 lbs * *: 67 inch tread width.
*
Deduct 25 lbs : Stock unaltered booster 390 cfm carburetor on 9.5 to 1 engine option.
*
Weights may be adjusted for all series options on tracks in excess of 1/2 mile or more in length. Teams will be notified in advance of any changes.
* *
10.10 Engine Requirements

Engine Option #1
*
a. Engines with cast iron heads must have a maximum static compression ratio of 10.99 to 1, as measured by the
* * * *PASS Whistler.
b. * * 600 cfm carb, must comply with carb requirements in rule 10.13.
c. * * Must be a V-8 engine with a maximum displacement of 360 cubic inches. Cars with engine displacement
* * * * exceeding 360 c. i. may be allowed to compete but need PASS Officials approval and carry a weight penalty.
d.No titanium or aluminum connecting rods permitted. Any length after market rod permitted.
e.Any flat tappet camshaft permitted. Roller Camshafts allowed with 25 lb. weight penalty.
f.No mushroom type lifters permitted. Lifter bores may be bored, or re-bored and sleeved to accept Ford lifters.
g. * *Any dry or wet sump oil system allowed. *Maximum of a five stage pump.
h.Any flat top piston permitted. Valve relief may be cut into piston. Pistons may not exceed engine compression rule. No pop-up or dish pistons. Dodge pistons can remove minimal material from top of piston to maintain 10:99 compression.
i. * * *Cylinder heads must comply with requirements in rule 10.11.
j. * * *Intake manifold must comply with requirements in rule 10.12.
j.No electric fuel pumps permitted.
k. * * No aluminum engine blocks
*
Engine Option #2*
*
a. * *Engines with cast iron heads must have a maximum static compression ratio of 10.99 to 1, as measured by the
* * * *PASS Whistler. Compressions ratios exceeding 10.99 may be run with PASS approval and up to a 50 lb. weight * * *penalty.
b. * * 500 cfm carb, must comply with carb requirements in rule 10.13.
c. Must be a V-8 engine with a maximum displacement of 360 cubic inches. Cars with engine displacement
* * * * exceeding 360 c. i. may be allowed to compete but need PASS Officials approval and carry a weight penalty.
d.No titanium or aluminum connecting rods permitted. Any length after market rod permitted.
e.Any flat tappet camshaft permitted. Roller camshafts allowed with 25 lb. weight penalty.
f.No mushroom type lifters permitted. Lifter bores may be bored, or re-bored and sleeved to accept Ford lifters.
g. * *Any dry or wet sump oil system allowed. *Maximum of a five stage pump.
h.Any flat top piston permitted. Valve relief may be cut into piston. Pistons may not exceed engine compression rule. No pop-up or dish pistons. Dodge pistons can remove minimal material from top of piston to maintain 10:99 compression.
i. * * *Cylinder heads must comply with requirements in rule 10.11.
j. * * *Intake manifold must comply with requirements in rule 10.12.
j.No electric fuel pumps permitted.
k. * * No aluminum engine blocks
*
Engine Option #3
*
9.50 to 1 Engine Rule
a. Can Not exceed 9.5:1compression
b. Valve angle: *
1. GM - 18 degrees minimum
2. Ford - 9 Degrees minimum with 4 degree valve center
3. Mopar - 12 Degrees minimum
c. Steel or Aluminum heads.
d. Steel standard production crankshaft, NO TITANIUM. Balancing allowed
e. Any cam, any steel lifter, and any rocker arms. Gear drives ok.
f. Any production steel or aluminum intake permitted. No fabricated intakes. Maximum depth of intake allowed is 4 5/8”.
*
*
g. Holly 390 cfm 4bbl carburetor only. Cars utilizing 390 cfm.carburetor *with stock boosters may deduct 25 lbs. Open booster carburetor option may NOT be used at tracks in excess of ½ mile or larger in length.
h. Maximum carburetor spacer/adapter/gasket thickness allowed is 2 1/8”.
i. Only single hole or 4 hole adapters are allowed with NO tapered, beveled, or slant holes.
*
Engine Option #4
*
1. Crate Engine with Cam Change
*
* * *GM * Fastburn 385 ( P/N 12496769), Fastburn 400 (P/N 88958604), : This is a factory sealed crate engine package, complete from intake manifold, stamped steel valve covers with racing style breathers, and 8 quart dual kick-out circle track racing oil pan. The Fast Burn 400 engine has a 1053 forged steel crankshaft, aluminum heads with 2.00"/1.55" valves, hydraulic roller lifters, HEI distributor, and normal rotation iron water pump included. (400 HP at 5500 RPM - Torque 400 @ 4500 RPM) The base engine is a Fast Burn 350ci 385 horsepower, with the following parts:
P/N 10105123 4 bolt iron block – Must Remain Stock
P/N 14088533 1053 steel crankshaft – Must Remain Stock
P/N 10108688 PM rod – Must Remain Stock
P/N 10159436 High silicon aluminum piston – Must Remain Stock. NO “Eyebrowing” the pistons for clearance
P/N 10185071 Camshaft with hydraulic roller lifters – The camshaft may be changed (to any roller cam,rocker arm and lifter)
P/N 12464298 Aluminum head – Must Remain Stock.* You may cut the heads .010 for clean-up. Minimum 60cc.
P/N 12496822 High rise single plane intake manifold, P/N 12366573 Aluminum dual plane (no EGR) or P/N 12496820
Aluminum dual plane (w/ EGR)– Must Remain Stock.* Competitors competing with the original Fastburn 385 (intake manifold p/n 12366573 or p/n 12496820) may update to Fastburn 400 (p/n 12496822) if no changes (except for the camshaft, rocker arms and lifters) have been made.
P/N 25534354 8 quart oil pan or Moroso part #21319 pan is permitted with matching p/u assembly and utilized in factory form without modifications.
Carburetors: a stock unaltered 4-brl Demon carburetor (p/n 2282010 “OT”) or Holley *HP series 4-brl 650 (p/n 80541-1 or -2) or an approved 600 cfm Holley carburetor.
*
*
2. * *Gm ZZ4 engine option.
* * * *This engine option must be used in factory produced form without modification except Cam-Lifter-Rocker change option.
*Carburetors: a stock unaltered Holley 750cfm. Carburetor or any PASS approved carburetor permitted within parameters of other engine options.
*
*
Weight Break allowed: Weight Break allowed: 57% max left side and normal weight requirements per PASS rules.
ANY PARTS OR TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS NOT MENTIONED ABOVE MUST REMAIN STOCK FOR THE FASTBURN 385 (P/N 12496769) OR FASTBURN 400 (P/N 88958604).
*
All aspects of engine must remain as manufactured unless otherwise specified in crate engine rebuild specifications.
*
*
*
Engine Option #5
*
* * * Crate Engine with NO Cam Change
*
*
1. Fastburn In factory form without modifications 385 ( P/N 12496769), Fastburn 400 (P/N 88958604).
*
This is a factory sealed crate engine package, complete from intake manifold, stamped steel valve covers with racing style breathers, and 8 quart dual kick-out circle track racing oil pan. The Fast Burn 400 engine has a 1053 forged steel crankshaft, aluminum heads with 2.00"/1.55" valves, hydraulic roller lifters, HEI distributor, and normal rotation iron water pump included. (400 HP at 5500 RPM - Torque 400 @ 4500 RPM) The base engine is a Fast Burn 350ci 385 horsepower, with the following parts:
P/N 10105123 4 bolt iron block – Must Remain Stock
P/N 14088533 1053 steel crankshaft – Must Remain Stock
P/N 10108688 PM rod – Must Remain Stock
P/N 10159436 High silicon aluminum piston – Must Remain Stock. NO “Eyebrowing” the pistons for clearance
P/N 10185071 Camshaft with hydraulic roller lifters – The camshaft may NOT be changed.
P/N 12464298 Aluminum head – Must Remain Stock.* You may cut the heads .010 for clean-up. Minimum 60cc.
P/N 12496822 High rise single plane intake manifold, P/N 12366573 Aluminum dual plane (no EGR) or P/N 12496820
Aluminum dual plane (w/ EGR)– Must Remain Stock.* Competitors competing with the original Fastburn 385 (intake manifold p/n 12366573 or p/n 12496820) may update to Fastburn 400 (p/n 12496822).
*
P/N 25534354 8 quart oil pan or Moroso part#21319 pan is permitted with matching p/u assembly permitted and utilized in factory form without modifications.
Carburetors: a stock 4-brl Demon carburetor (p/n 2282010 “OT”) or Holley HP Series 4 brl. 650 Carburetor (p/n 80541-1 or -2) or an approved 600 cfm Holley carburetor.
*
2. * * Mc Gunegill FORD 425 LM Spec (crate) engine in COMPLETE sealed untouched form as produced will be permitted for competition. Utilization of this option is *restricted to Mc gunnegell specs and is restricted to manufacturer rebuild. No Exceptions.
*
*
3. * * * * * Dodge 400HP Engine (P/N 5007958) Complete in factory untouched sealed form. No exceptions permitted. This is a factory crate engine package, includes a Re-man 360 block (thermal cycled), Aluminum Water Pump, Damper, Distributor w/ Ignition Box, Race Oil Pan, Die Cast Valve Covers w/ Breather, W9 Cylinder Heads, Aluminum Single Plane Intake, HP Moly Coated Fuel Pump Eccentric, Timing Chain tensioner.* Approximate Engine weight – 455lbs (dry). 400 HP at 5700 RPM - Torque 400 @ 4500 RPM (has been dyno-tested). 2.150” Intake / 1.600” Exhaust Valve. 4.020 Bore with 3.580” Stroke. Lift .534” I / .542” E – Duration @ .050” 248 I / 254 E.* Approximate -10:1 Compression Ratio Re-man 360 Block (thermal cycled)
– Must Remain Stock
P5007179 -W9 Aluminum Cylinder Heads (52cc)- Must Remain Stock. Clean-up allowance .010
P4876162 – Single Plane Intake manifold - Must Remain Stock
04778875AB – 6.123” Forged Steel Connecting Rods w/ HP Rod Bolts - Must * * *Remain Stock
04790759AB – Cast Crankshaft - Must Remain Stock
P4876965 – Flat Top Cast Pistons w/ Coated Skirt - Must Remain Stock
T & D Rocker Arms - Must Remain Stock
20-007-9 – Hyd. Roller Camshaft (by Competition Cam) - Must Remain Stock
Carburetors: a stock 4-brl Demon carburetor (p/n 2282010 “OT”) or Holley HP series 4 brl. 650 carburetor (p/n 80541-1 or -2) or an approved 600 cfm. Holley carburetor.
Weight Break allowed: 57% max left side and normal weight requirements per PASS rules for all crate equipped options.
ANY PARTS OR TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS NOT MENTIONED ABOVE MUST REMAIN STOCK AS PRODUCED for All Crate engines options utilized for competition. NO EXCEPTIONS *unless otherwise specified in crate engine rebuild specifications. *

*

[Tim]

Incorrect...taken straight from the 2011 PASS South Rulebook. These are all SLM engines and NOT allowed to run in PLM (crate) races.

http://passtour.fatcow.com/2011-FORM...outh_Rules.pdf

10.4 Car Weight
Cars must be race ready with driver, full of fuel, water and oil.
a. Base weight: 58% left side percentage. Straight rail or perimeter– ABC body
Car weights listed by engine option
2800 lbs.:
GM 18 degree/ Ford std valve angle 9-1 compression engines with use of
altered or unaltered booster Holley #6895 or #80507 390 cfm carburetor.
Pro Cup Engine with use of unaltered Holley 600 hp carburetor.
Southern steel head high compression (14 -1 compression maximum)
Sunbelt series approved engine
McGunegill or Hamner spec engines
2775 lbs.:
Gm 23 degree 9-1 compression engine with use of either altered or unaltered
booster Holley #6895 or #80507 390 cfm. carburetor.
Northern steel head engine option(11-1 max compression-flat tappet camshaft)
with use of maximum 750 cfm. Holley carburetor.
FORD D347SR Factory Sealed Race engine with 650 cfm. carburetor.2750 lbs.:
GM 604 400 fast burn sealed crate engine with Rocker 1.6 ,Balancer and oil pan change wet sump only, with Holley 650 cfm. Carburetor.
McGunegill LM425 engine option unaltered with use of Holley 650 cfm.
carburetor.
2700 lbs.:
GM 604 400 fast burn sealed crate engine with 650 cfm. carburetor.

[mr south 59]

A Super Spec with the restrictor makes 485 hp max on a good day, a good crate makes 450/460.

By the way I will take 485 over 600 hp at Citrus or Auburdale any day....you just cant put it to the ground..And I still weigh 150 lbs. more than the Crate Cars...

Hey racin4ever. With all due respect. There is not a legal crate motor that makes 460 hp. When mine was new to me we had it dyno tuned. With a box stock carb and 1 3/4 headers it made 387 hp. When we put a BLP carb and stepped headers it made 399. When we sent it to an approved engine builder and had it freshened up after 2 years it made 419 hp with certified seals in it. There is not a crate in the country that has certified engine builders seals in it that makes 450/460 although you will find plenty of them that make 450/500 with after market GM seals in them. But that is techs problem.


I would suggest you call some of the top engine builders in the country and ask they if you take their best super motor they got and put that plate in it and how much it will put out. It will be way way way over that 485. dd38 is so right. Again

So much for taking a late lunch. Sorry for boring with details.

[Tim]

I would suggest you call some of the top engine builders in the country and ask they if you take their best super motor they got and put that plate in it and how much it will put out. It will be way way way over that 485. dd38 is so right.

There are 2 statements combined into one here. dd38 was speaking of the spec motor which has been dynoed continuously with different restrictors to get them to the 485 range. You can play the conspiracy theories all you want but numerous builders have come to the same conclusion. You however are speaking of the best SLM motor the top builders can build. 2 TOTALLY different motors. In that respect, their best built motor will probably produce more hp with that restrictor.

My question is if dd38 has an engine that produces 550hp, how do you penalize someone that has the same engine combination only built better at 590hp....should they be penalized because dd38 has a motor that only produces 550hp? Doesn't sound like racing to me. Racing has and always will be "keeping up with the Jones". No offense dd38 just asking.

[dd38]

Well mine was built by a pretty respective builder and I'm sure that he has squeezed all out of it that can be. If someone else can take the exact same parts and get 40-50 more out of it, I want his name.

[Tim]

Whos your engine builder dd38? We all know who builds the motors you make excuses about.

What kind of motor do you run? And whos the builder?

Just want everyone to know who's building 550hp motors and selling them as SLM motors....

[rusty47711]

everybody wants horsepower give me 50 more foot pounds of torque than you and 50 less horsepower than you i'll out run you all day long. torque gets you off the corner. nobody ever compares the torque numbers. not cornering dd38 or any one else just trying to look at it another way.
rusty

[Benny The Mule]

been reading yalls responses,no were in my post did i complain about the rules,i know we can run with any super out there.we treat or try to treat everyone at the track with respect and expect that in return,if we complained about the supers we would be told to go work on our car,they complain and tech is rite in our pits,if i wanted to be cused out and called names id stay at home,lol,as for tim,benny i own the 28 dodge,spend my money to go racing,sean has been driving for me many years,we are used to being the under dogs,showing up on open trailer,but we come to win,we dont complain,or quit. u must not know us to well,weve raced at over 30 different tracks up down the east coast,never been treated like that before,didnt even get a call from series to hash things out,maybe thats good dont want to hear a bunch of whinning,from grown men.see yall in victory lane jeff

Jeff,

I've known you since the mid 80's....i just noticed you are new on here and was the reason i asked another if he KNEW you...LOL.

You have a PM!

[Bigbuck]

Nerone

You really need to put that nose DEEP in the corner!!! LOL