Crate Engines

[ronabneysr]

i had a crate motor in one of my open wheels at eddie brann

memorial trust me i don't want any more crate motors .. i ain't got the answers but the open wheels has about the fairest rules

7 lbs per cubic inch you could probably cut cost down some by putting them on two barrell carbs ///////////////////////////

[modracecar#8]

crate motor

well this crate motor cost 3.200 and it runs on 93 octane that about 2.90 a gal at any gas station vs 8.00 gal for 110 this motor ran well sat night right with the fast super stocks was running 3rd before contact with another car bent the tie rod with 2 laps to go the only thing we had to buy to change it over was the carb plate made by canton 54.00 the motor came with it own distributor used the same water pump pulleys etc this is a lot cheaper to run what the track could do if they think someone is cheating then have a couple motors they can swap them out . as far as dyno that is the next stop we where going to do it before the race just didn't have time with the holidays the saveing on fuel alone is alot if you race every week. bottom line this could work if it is policed.

[Andy S]

this motor ran well sat night right with the fast super stocks was running 3rd before contact with another car bent the tie rod with 2 laps to go

I wondered why Chad had retired when he was running so well so thanks for posting that. He was up to 6th right from the back before the end of the first lap and was easily in the hunt for the lead up at the front with Herdegen, Holley and Korpi by the middle of the race. That car easily had enough speed in it to win that race.

[andre]

bottom line this could work if it is policed.

A couple of quick tests at the track that could be done:
Vacuum at idle
Compression
Compression ratio
Cubic inches

This will not cover everything but it's a start.

[Todd McCreary]

Yes the 602 puts out 350 HP according to Chevy, but one must have several things to do that, a 4 bbl carb, headers, etc etc.


fair enough, you've got a point.



a viableOPTIONfor people in the Super Stock class if the Tech is consistent and the "fixing" of these motors is kept to a minimum.

bottom line this could work if it is policed.


well, we all agree on something.




what the track could do if they think someone is cheating then have a couple motors they can swap them out .

a - you think the track is going to keep ~$6,500 to $10,000 in engines just sitting around?

b - while this would help get tech over a done with much faster that night, the pulled engine would still need to be teched. and rebuilt to "factory spec" if it's wrong. and what are you going to do for penalties if a crate motor is found illegal?

c - part of the reason for teching that night, is so the car owner and protesting driver can see for themselves what is "wrong". it's an issue of rules enforcement transparency. i don't think moving the tear down to a later date helps with this.

[BTyler99]

well this crate motor cost 3.200 and it runs on 93 octane that about 2.90 a gal at any gas station vs 8.00 gal for 110 this motor ran well sat night right with the fast super stocks was running 3rd before contact with another car bent the tie rod with 2 laps to go the only thing we had to buy to change it over was the carb plate made by canton 54.00 the motor came with it own distributor used the same water pump pulleys etc this is a lot cheaper to run what the track could do if they think someone is cheating then have a couple motors they can swap them out . as far as dyno that is the next stop we where going to do it before the race just didn't have time with the holidays the saveing on fuel alone is alot if you race every week. bottom line this could work if it is policed.

My open super stock motor runs on 93 octane as well. In fact our engine builder told us that if a super stock motor needs racing gas to run then it usually has some that is not by the rules.

[blazer63]

My open super stock motor runs on 93 octane as well. In fact our engine builder told us that if a super stock motor needs racing gas to run then it usually has some that is not by the rules.

That statement is not true. Some racers do use 110 in low compression engines. It does not mean that they have high compression if they run it. Why not dyno the crate engine on a chassis dyno. Give a percentage range say 20%. Ex: if it dynos @219 on dyno test then use this number. If you have 254 or more then you pay 500.00 fine before you can go back racing. You must also use FASCAR crate engine. If you get caught 2nd time in a year then its 750.00 to return. 3rd time you are done for the season and all points are void. This will stop the guys using Brzezinski heads and intakes. Ricky Brooks has tool to check camshaft duration. It will be difficult for the cheaters if FASCAR takes this approach. Just my opinion. Any others I would like to see them?

[Todd McCreary]

That statement is not true.


read more closely.



if a super stock motor needs racing gas to run then it usually has some that is not by the rules.


some people run race or avgas in stock level motors. it doesn't mean that you can't run them on regular 87 octane, but some like the additional knock protection and quality of the more expensive fuels in racing applications. especially when you might be at a risk to run the engine hot.



It does not mean that they have high compression if they run it.

it also doesn't mean that they have to run it at all.




If you have 254 or more then you pay 500.00 fine

a - i think there is likely to be too much variability in driveline losses to assess fines on rear wheel dyno numbers. if you happened to dyno a cheater motor on a night when the torque convertor happened to be burning up/ballooning or trans was starting to let go it could show "legal" or underpowered even if it wasn't. then you've got Donny Lewis's greatest fear: the drivers might figure out how to cheat the chassis dyno.

if you're going to fine, do it off of the flywheel or by finding that the engine has been altered.

b - $500 is too small anyways, see below



You must also use FASCAR crate engine.

which, after the first one or two crate motors have been seized, will be a rebuilt, previously seized competition crate motor.

FASCAR certainly isn't going to buy a new ~$3,500 crate and give it to someone for $500 because they thought he was cheating. those seized motors will be recycled.

and if you're going to recycle motors that are suspected to be cheated up you will have to run every seized motor through a "trusted" engine rebuilder to evaluate and fix any problems.

so then we reach the other end of the problem:
1 - engine is protested or confiscated by the track on race night, team is swapped a "known good" crate motor
2 - later the next week, engine is delivered to the inspecting builder when he opens for business
3 - engine builder evaluates "crate motor", likely without the car owner or protesting racer there. possibly without an official track representative present
4a - engine is found "factory spec", there is no problem, everyone is "happy" ... except for the team which had their motor seized and were forced to pay a $500 fine for no reason. but i guess if they want to stay in the points race, it's the price of doing business.
4b - engine is found cheated. cheater team is now in possession of a like new crate motor which is worth far more than your prospective fines. what's to stop them from just walking away and not paying up? especially if you're at the "banning them for the year" point?
5 - FASCAR pays engine builder to rebuild to "crate" spec. you really think $500 is going to cover this? especially if it really is cheated up?



are you going to hold the replacement FASCAR crate until after the engine builder finishes his evaluation? what if the builder is slammed with work and doesn't get around to doing the tear down until Wed-Fri? now the protested team has to get to FASCAR ( no trifling concern, this. i know people south of Fort Pierce racing at OSW and NSS, it would not surprise me if there are people towing further ), transport the new crate back to their shop and thrash to get it in. they may not have time to install the new motor in time for the upcoming race.

did they cheat? then who cares if they miss a week of racing in addition to the official penalty.

were they legal? you've just screwed them out of a weeks worth of points for no reason.

what if they want to protest the finding? what if they say "screw it" and just want their motor back and they won't race at FASCAR anymore? you're opening up huge cans of worms here.

but i think it's all moot anyways. i don't see FASCAR laying out ~$10k to keep a stockpile of crate motors laying around.

[andre]

Here's how ACT(New England and Québec) do their Late Model Crate Motor program.

All motors(603) come from Butler Mc Master, they are built, rebuilt and all dyno tested there, results in file.

Some of them are removed during the season and ship back there to be dyno tested, numbers have to match, as easy as ABC. Why try to make it problematic when it can be so simple.

[Tim]

Here in FL we call that a monopoly........

[andre]

Up this way, we call that a proven program that works great.

Between New England, Québec and Ontario, you probably have close to 300 LMS cars under the same common set of rule. That is one of the main reasons why some promoters can afford to have races that pays the big bucks(Oxford 250, Milk Bowl), they have a high number of participants, and by the same token...a large quantity of race fans.

[Tim]

Sorry Andre I wasn't disagreeing with you.

[andre]

NO problem, I was just kidding too.

You see, every day we can read here on this message board that there was no cars no fans no nothing at so and so track(s). Many people try to help by giving ideas, talking about what they have seen work here and there, in other word, trying to help short track racing in Fla getting better.

I just try to do my share. If somebody take the idea(s) I bring up and have some success with it, more power to him(her).

[mr south 59]

Most of the touring series that run crate motors have approved engine builders like Harper, Redi, Progressive, McGunegill, Holmes, Tesar, ect. These engine builders put up a $50,000 bond with the series. If one motor is ever found illegal the builder loses their bond and will not be allowed in the program. These motors (like mine) do not have the shear bolts in them. They have seals that look like a master lock with a serial number on it that is issued by the series. The number and dyno sheets are regestured with the series. You can be guaranteed that these motors are legal. It's the ones with the stock (after makerted) sheer bolts in them that need to get looked at and do get looked at in these series.

[EJC Engines]

sorry but if bobby holley or garret hill or donnie funk are out there on a good set of tires there aint going to be no 602 crate motor beating them inless you have someone like clouser that come downn and runs super stock with the 602 only one i seen beat bobby when bobby had a good set of tires they get closer but you have to be a good driver to beat bobby or donnie even garret