My conversation with John Sarppraicone

[zerofor]

Old school

I wasn't trying to ignore your question, I just now noticed it.And no John and I haven't secretly started to launch a new series or any new earth shattering solutions to save Florida racing or racing as a whole. I meant productive in a sense of a little info that we didn't know about each other or Desoto Speedway before I came to Florida and revealing in how much of a soft spot in his heart he apparently still has for the track in Bradenton.I echoed his sentiments that I feel that it's the nicest facility in the state.And I really do want to see the place rebound.It will probably come in baby steps but the place is nice enough that with the right decisions,and my opinion here,much more effort,it could happen.

[jacko241]

Old school have to dissigree with you on this one ,I'm sick and tired that the track owners don't treat the drivers well,the racer brought this upon themselves why can't I run this or that do you know how much I paid for this item no I don't care it's in the rules it says no in plain English,then the mf comes and everything else I'm never coming back I wish I had a Penny for all the times we have heard that.number 2 respect as soon as you say to them no it's an all time war when are you going to realize the track owners do not start this shit,they get nothing but ridiculed over and over again, come on track owners stick up for yourselves. Its no they will not dare to stand up for themselves you know it's true, I love how you only here one side of the story,there's 3sides to it yours mine and the truth ok track owners let's see who will back me up ,see ya at the races.

I have never owned a race track, but I have owned lots of race cars, and I completely agree with Mr. Sappraicone. Racers always push the envelope of the rules, and that is fine at the top levels of the sport. But, it has destroyed the hobby aspect of it by making it almost impossible for the average guy to afford to race a late model or modified. The funny thing to me is, you can buy these cars used for pennies on the dollar, simply because no one wants them because they are too expensive to run!

[OldSchool+]

"Racers always push the envelope of the rules, and that is fine at the top levels of the sport. But, it has destroyed the hobby aspect of it by making it almost impossible for the average guy to afford to race a late model or modified. The funny thing to me is, you can buy these cars used for pennies on the dollar, simply because no one wants them because they are too expensive to run!"-- Jacko

Bingo!

Fact: Racing is expensive, both monetarily and time wise. And it is a very compelling sport. This leads some to spend more money than they can really afford, either to keep up or to gain an advantage.

Fact: Racers will then lobby tracks to let them run "the good stuff".

Fact: This practice escalates upward until all but a few are priced out of the game.

Fact: The above ain't all the track's fault, Jack.

BUT, they are accomplices. Without their capitulation, the costs could not have escalated upward.

Back in the day, modifieds had $500 claimer motors, there were a lot of them, and they put on a good show. Are there any claimer rules now? How did they change?

And I think I understand a potential promoter's viewpoint: "They done it to themselves, and they bitch about it. And now my car count is down. The racers need to fix it!"

Do we really think the broke racers with parked cars that spent more than they could afford are going to "fix" this?

On the other hand, consolidation of classes, inexpensive motor and tire rules, and old school chassis rules could change the outlook of the racers, and bring them back to the track. All they need to think is "Hey, my stuff would be competitive, and I can afford to build that motor with the parts I have. And the chassis rules? A little welding and maybe some lead and I am there. I never thought I would say it, but I am coming back!".

"The Problem" may partially be the fault of the racers, maybe a big part, but only the tracks can fix the issue.

Actually, whose fault it is is beside the point. How to fix it is the point.

Unless one wants to be "right" with either a handful of cars or a closed racetrack.

[x90 John Sarppraicone]

Zerofor Long Island NY Seaford I grew up on the island raced at islip and riverhead and raced go karts up there before moving to Florida, guys who cares who caused the mess we all did if you want racing to grow here you need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel go to race tracks with a smile enjoy it feel it race it and have fun, forget about the past shake the track owners hand and bring people it's a cheep night of good entertainment see ya at the races.

[OldSchool+]

The lack of cars, which equals a poor evening's entertainment, certainly isn't the fan's fault, nor is it their responsibility to fix it. Or spend their evening sitting on a hard bench watching a few cars mindlessly circulate.

There are a 1000 other things to do, starting with the instant-gratification-"smart"-phone.

I know of a racer--a racer--that recently traveled for hours to go from a close-track-with-few-cars to go to another track that had more cars.

As for me, I travel to them all, and buy front or back gate tickets, and food. I take guests when I can and buy their way in.

To the best of my knowledge, none have returned on their own.

Come up with a good show with lots of cars and donuts on the doors, and then hope for the best. No guarantees even then.

No cars...really, I see Jacko's "rent the venue and race for racer-purchased tropies" coming. With few-to-no spectators.

The ball is in the court of those that write the rules.

[OldSchool+]

Now, the obvious objection will be "But I (the promoter) will piss off the few cars that I have, and then I will have none. How can that work?"

Keep the current classes.

Introduce a new one--news flash--called simply: "Late Models".

Make the rules close to the current Sportsman cars, and pay at least what they get. Even then, knock back the front springs & rear suspension to leafs or a triangulated 4 link --in other words--20+ year old technology.

Explain to the racers that the payout will be tied to car count. --And then pay more, especially through the field, as the car count grows. Make sure everyone can come close to covering their expenses.

Eventually, some Sportsman cars will move up, and some Supers will move down, and hopefully a lot of cars will come out of mothballs.

AND THEN, resist the pressure to repeat the mistakes and relax the rules.

No charge for the ideas, I just love short track racing.

[jacko241]

I agree, OS. I said it before in a different post, that the racers and the tracks are to blame. I just get frustrated by what John pointed out, that the racers ask for things that increase the cost, and then bitch about how much it costs to race and the size of the purses.

[zerofor]

And just the cost of getting there is crazy compared to the old days

Back in the 70s most guys were still using open trailers,wedge style haulers wreckers etc to transport to the track.A few guys even gutted out old school buses. When was the last time you saw that? Nowadays its a 10-20 grand enclosed trailer with a 25- 50 k truck pulling it if not a toterhome.A guy is 50-100 grand deep in a lot of cases before he even loads an actual racecar inside.So in a lot of instances the racers have indeed brought it on themselves.The track owners have furthered it along by deciding to be tire dealers,fuel retailers and in some cases racing parts distributors instead of using their venues more adequately and not try to stay afloat with their property only generating income four to five nights a month.The " Latemodel" class as you call them Old School sorely needs to exist here but in my opinion needs to be what 4-17 ,Auburndale and Desoto currently call Street Stocks.But instead of them being forty year old Camaros mandate what a few racers have already done and put current body style camaro and mustang etc body's on them.Leave the rest of the rules alone and give them some bump in payout ( which would still take less out of a track owners pocket than superlates or modified but give a guy a little more to race for) and the average fan would be happy with the show.Especially if the fields filled back up into the twenty's and the racing was close and good.Yes sir fire breathing,ear splitting V8s roaring around in a group of twenty plus.Like John said stop trying to reinvent the wheel.Just run the numbers,what works for you the promoter and the racer and refine and freshen up what has already existed,just without antique Monte Carlo's or Camaros.

[OldSchool+]

I would suggest that there aren't that many big dollar rigs.

--And at least one 2015 Champion had an open trailer & pickup truck.

--And many of the "target" cars--race cars on jack stands--have open trailers (or enclosed trailers) out in the yard.

You are getting close on the cars. The fans have to identify them as "Late Models", & therefore they have to look and sound like late models and be the fastest cars at a given venue on a given evening.

"Outlaw" bodies are both cool and inexpensive. ABC bodies are neither (imo), but they could also be "legal".

[luke81]

One solution to put on a better show: Stop adding more and more junkyard classes. The little 4cyl front wheel drives put on a pretty decent show. That's as low buck as a race car should get. Now there's "enduro" FWD's, and whatever bomber crap class has the big v8 cars, and I see Citrus is adding some kind of class like that.
Stop it. Nobody wants to sit in the stands and watch 19 classes of junkyard scrap cars slowly roll around the track. Especially when there are only a handful of each class. Promoters need to quit trying to pad their back gate funds with people who really can't afford to be there, because no people coming through the front gate want to see it.

[Groundpounder]

Curious, what in life doesn't cost twice as much as 25 years ago? Houses, computers, street cars, food etc. are twice as much as they used to be, as well as racing cars. So what, the stock market has doubled and everyone's true net and standard of living is much better. Fuel probably quadrupled...The admission and pit fees have doubled...but... purses are about the same from the promoters (wrong?)... what's wrong here? Don't blame the rules and competitors... It's the supply and demand of fans. Things and tastes change in this world.

Road racers, drag racers and "club" racers aren't really any different than anyone else except probably just older but...they still want to drive fast and have fun but they are very serious about going fast and being safe....the cost of life's pleasure! Many could care less that a promoter isn't trying to exploit them where he makes a buck at their risk...Most races have FREE admission! Other than the big leagues, it's all pay to play for the drivers and teams. Get used to it. I am ok with that.

I will say this, the road racing groups are organized, avid RECRUITERS for participants, and they do a great job! The easy $ has been over for the short tracks, maybe those guys should read a chapter from that book!

[OldSchool+]

GP,

I will have to disagree with your premise.

The stock market trades on the strength of companies, but also emotion, yet most curiously was propped up by the Fed under BO's administration. With printed money that reduced the value of all of the money in circulation. Including yours and mine, and the guy with the race car.

Folks out of work are not counted in unemployment numbers once their unemployment benefits run out in three months or so.

When I was growing up there were all two parent households up and down the street with no debt, since there were no credit cards. And there was money to dispose of, on vacations, boats, and stock cars.

Now, the parent/kids I know are mostly single family and on some or a lot of government money just to get along.

Don't get me wrong, their self imposed loser-prison is by their own hand, but...

By and large, there is less money for people to race with, especially young people. And the cars are more expensive. It ain't rocket science.

And I still maintain that club racing, while I enjoy it, is not stock car racing.

Am hoping all the local short tracks and stock car racing survives.

[OldSchool+]

PS--re--Club racing.

Guys run what they can afford. Some are in unibody Camaros or Mustangs with a cage. They would be roughly analogous to the "late model" class I was suggesting.

Others bring semi-haulers containing GT-1 full blown tube frame race cars with Cup engines. And more power to them.

How close do you think the racing is?

And the rules? Car count wise, they cannot afford to turn away either group, so they are mostly safety driven.

Oh, yeah, I haven't had to hit one yet with a BFH due to a disagreement over position. Nobody wants to bend their stuff. Very understandable.

So they get to run their race cars and they generally finish in a position that is relative to the pile of money invested--like short track cars-- but the effects are vastly more exaggerated.

All of which points out my premise: Limit the cars to where the money will not let the well financed guys kill the low dollar guys, and relatively speaking, it doesn't take that much money.

And they all get to keep their hammers.

[kendo]

Curious, what in life doesn't cost twice as much as 25 years ago? Houses, computers, street cars, food etc. are twice as much as they used to be, as well as racing cars.

And yet wages have been stagnant for the last 20 years,and in most cases cut in the last 10 years.
Its even worse for your local Joe Florida racer who cuts lawns,landscapes,trims palm trees, or clean swimming pools for a living.

[Groundpounder]

There are more shouting matches after an scca race that you would believe...all just human.