NSS World Series Night Two Updates...

[OldSchool+]

That is indeed a frightening and intimidating fire, no doubt.

But they have trucks with foam at airports to put out (heaven forbid) aircraft fires.

Seems like something ought to handle a fire that size, scary or not.

If absolutely not, we need to think about another solution, like 5 or 10 gallon cells and pit stops.

Or, although the rules sounded pretty stout, maybe more fuel cell cladding of some type is in order, weight be damned.

And onboard fire bottles? They seem to work well on Cup cars...

At any rate, EZ, I cannot imagine your point is --"Nothing can be done about a fire like that (which potentially can happen to any car at any time) and if the driver cannot extricate him or herself immediately, well, that is very unfortunate".

[Lurkin]

Methanol or Alky used in race cars is actually LESS volatile than gasoline. It does burn nearly invisible which makes it as dangerous in many cases if the crash crew is not properly educated or equipped to fight a methanol fire, which ironically requires only water and NOT chemicals. It is used because it makes good power, cooler, in cases where you don't get enough air to the radiator like sprints, midgets super mods, mods.

From Wiki:
Both methanol and ethanol burn at lower temperatures than gasoline, and both are less volatile, making engine starting in cold weather more difficult. Using methanol as a fuel in spark-ignition engines can offer an increased thermal efficiency and increased power output (as compared to gasoline) due to its high octane rating (114[10]) and high heat of vaporization.

[Phil Jacques]

Methanol or Alky used in race cars is actually LESS volatile than gasoline. It does burn nearly invisible which makes it as dangerous in many cases if the crash crew is not properly educated or equipped to fight a methanol fire, which ironically requires only water and NOT chemicals. It is used because it makes good power, cooler, in cases where you don't get enough air to the radiator like sprints, midgets super mods, mods.

From Wiki:
Both methanol and ethanol burn at lower temperatures than gasoline, and both are less volatile, making engine starting in cold weather more difficult. Using methanol as a fuel in spark-ignition engines can offer an increased thermal efficiency and increased power output (as compared to gasoline) due to its high octane rating (114[10]) and high heat of vaporization.

I'll gladly stand corrected here. Thanks Lurkin.


It still help UREZ see the bottom line here. If the track had proper equipment and training/response time, PART of that car could have been saved. Fires like that are things that happened in the 80s before all the modern systems were in place... NOT today. It's absolutely inexcusable.

Regarding the NSS rules, two things. Jordan Ives is NOT an NSS regular. He may not comply 100% to all NSS safety rules. The wording "rubber type" means nothing in that paragraph. There are many different types of can liners. Jaz cells have a polyethylene liner which is a synthetic plastic/rubber, aka "rubber type", so your posting of the rules mean nothing.




Even charred and black/crushed, these two cans would be distinctly different in design.

Here is a link to the fuel cell most tracks here require us to use. Please note that they have a 3 layer "ballistic nylon" bladder in a 20ga steel can.

http://atlinc.com/pdfs/Racing/ATL-20...log-Page11.pdf

It takes a lot to rupture one of the cells and even if they do puncture, 22 gallons is not instantly on the ground as was in this case.

My friends who reported it to be a jazz type cell to me, are no less than 20 years older than me and have 40 years more time in this sport than me.

20E- 16.1 FUEL CELL – Must meet NASCAR specifications with a fuel cell bladder made of a material that
returns to its original size and shape after deformation. Rotational molded bladders are not permitted. It is
highly recommended that the fuel cell bladder be no more than six (6) years old. Competitor must provide
bladder model, serial number and date(s) to SMS Officials before competing. If a gas cap is used it must be
painted white with the car number on it for identification. For additional specifications see the NASCAR
rulebook. The minimum requirement for approved fuel cells at SMS are as follows: ATL Super Cell “100" FB1
- Series Bladders. (Note: the complete cell will be the SU1- Series), and the Fuel Safe Sportsman Cell (SM
Series). Any cell that is rated above these cells (ATL 200 & 500 series), and the Fuel Safe Pro Cell (PC Series),
will also be approved for competition at SMS.

NOW THAT is how a fuel cell rule should read. Straight from the Stafford Motor Speedway SK Modified rule book.

Look for a rule change very soon. Mark my word.

Peace out cub scout

[UREZ2PASS]

It takes a lot to rupture one of the cells and even if they do puncture, 22 gallons is not instantly on the ground as was in this case. t

It's obvious in the photos the fuel was not "instantly" on the ground. If you can't see that the cell was punctured and leaked fuel until the car came to a rest and then continued to leak fuel, then I can't help you understand.

Something punctured the cell, whatever it was would have punctured any fuel cell used in late models. It was a metal container, it got punctured.

If I'm wrong and it was a plastic cell, at least it was a car from up north. LOL !

[OldSchool+]

"If...it was a plastic cell, at least it was a car from up north. LOL!"--EZ

I think that is what they call "dark humor"!

Still, we don't want them boys hurt, fer sure ("carpetbaggers" or not!).

It seems simple enough.

NSS (and all tracks, really): Here are some potential questions from --you pick--The Media. The local Politicians. The Insurance Company. NASCAR. Or all of the above.

"So, did the car meet your rules at your facility with your safety equipment providing the safety for the participants and spectators?"
"Er, yes..."

"Then why did a fire erupt that was from a car built to your specifications that your 'Safety' Team could not handle?"
"Um, it was a bad fire."

"Yes it was, and (fill in some very serious details here) occured. Tell me, are the results of a 22 gallon fire not known by previous testing by Simpson or others?"
"Yeah, that information is out there..."

"Then can you please explain for us how YOU are NOT negligable and responsible?"
"(Fill in your response here)".

[UREZ2PASS]

At any rate, EZ, I cannot imagine your point is --"Nothing can be done about a fire like that (which potentially can happen to any car at any time) and if the driver cannot extricate him or herself immediately, well, that is very unfortunate".

My point was that in this situation, the driver was lucky and the car would have been toast anyway. Sure, it could have been extinguished quicker but the outcome would have been the same.

What should be focused on is the type, age, and design of the fuel cell. Also what punctured it and how can we make late model car construction methods safer.

I'm guessing here, but I would be willing to bet a bumper brace punctured the metal container. Definately at a low point because the fuel continued to escape.

There is a lot that can be learned, the main thing is the fans, driver, and rescue personnel are not injured.

I'm done talking about this, it's only continuing to beat a dead horse.

[OldSchool+]

"What should be focused on is the type, age, and design of the fuel cell. Also what punctured it and how can we make late model car construction methods safer."--EZ

I really think we are all on the same page here--driver and spectator safety.

Your suggestion is spot on--and itself will be driven primarily by rules and inspections--but it is only half the equation--in my humble opinion.

[fred23]

This was obviously a freak accident. We can't expect to be ready for every situation when something out of the ordinary happens. Someone stated the car lost the brakes, so he is running upwards of 130mph when this happens and can't slow the car down. Bad things are going to happen, kevlar fuel cell or not. I would be more worried about why the brakes failed.
There have been millions of laps ran at NSS and tracks around the country for that matter. I am sure there are only a handful of drivers that have been lost due to fire. Yes, losing just one life is tragic but racing is a dangerous sport. As drivers we understand that. How about how remarkable it is that he hit a concrete wall at 130mph and was not knocked unconscious and was able to get out of the car. Since Dale Sr. died, safety in race cars at every level has increased 1000%. When I started racing in 2000 we had an aluminum seat with a little "head rest" on the right side for comfort not safety. Now we have full containment seats and head and neck restraints.
I know NSS has the foam and proper chemicals for fires, I have seen it and Don even confirmed it. The truck cannot be there instantaneously. I was not there but I have witnessed two bad fires at NSS, both the result of stuck throttles. Same action of the car backing into the wall at full speed. The fire happens almost instantly. Both drivers got out in time, plus they were modified so mostly aluminum bodies. If NSS had an airport quality foam truck in the infield they could not have stopped this from happening.
If the racer did not have the proper fuel cell or a fire suppression system then shame on him. Although, when you are on fire, you kind of forget about that red handle.....you just want to get the hell out.
But as a racer, you have to be responsible for your safety first by building and maintaining the car the right way. Brake failure and/ or Throttle hanging up is on the driver and crew. Wrong or lack of safety equipment on the car is driver and crew.
Hope the rest of speedweeks and 2015 is safe for everyone that races.