Question for the Sportsman guys.. Built vs Crate?

[OldSchool+]

ps--dd38 & xracer, am wishing you the best with your issues, and it is good that you still get to race a little here and there.

[Matt Albee]

Phil asked a question of the Sportsman Guys. Obviously I am not one of them. But here might be some things to ponder for Phil and those who are.

Seems to me it is an "apples and oranges" discussion.

Crate motors are "best" for those on a budget. No doubt.

But as a spectator, who doesn't want to hear the crisp ring of that extra RPM?

As a competitor--you are always looking for the mechanical edge. Traditionally, the first place to look is under the hood.

As a competitor, who doesn't want the ability to out-accelerate someone coming off a corner? Who doesn't want more RPM?

If you had a car owner with deep pockets, and he asked your choice-any choice, am guessing that choice would be a built motor.

Possibly a $10k motor, if it is faster and he can afford it.

Which brings us full circle, money reduces fields and then they dissapear altogether.

Apples and oranges...

A possible solution: Limit the parts and pieces in a "built" motor to approximate a crate motor, and maybe open the cam choice up for crate motors.

That way, it may be cheaper to buy a crate and change the cam than pay for a built motor, and home builders may be able to save a little over even a crate.

Downsides(there almost always are some...)--the current built motor guys need a new motor, and engine builders need to figure out how to make money at a lower price point.

When i think back to the early years of stock car racing, i know that the guys with the most money were always winning. But the car counts were always off the charts. So it looks like competing was far more important than racing cheaply.
If you limit the parts and pieces, you end up with a crate motor. From what i've read and heard, the engine builders and machine shops haven't exactly been getting rich off of building race engines. I think their price point was already about as reasonable as it could get. But GM and Ford don't have to work off of the same profit margin as the local shops because they're selling thousands or hundreds of thousands of engines.

[sbracer58]

Crate. Not even close. We used to have wooden wheels on our buggys and candles for light and then better stuff came along and the wheel and candle makers had to either keep up with the new/better tech or go hungry.

If you're so worried about engine builders going out of business, just send them money. But don't legislate the rest of us to do it as well.

[Matt Albee]

Crate. Not even close. We used to have wooden wheels on our buggys and candles for light and then better stuff came along and the wheel and candle makers had to either keep up with the new/better tech or go hungry.

If you're so worried about engine builders going out of business, just send them money. But don't legislate the rest of us to do it as well.

I see you don't subscribe to the " big picture " view of racing. Everyone should be worried about the engine builders, speed shops, and machine shops going under. I actually do support the local shops over mail order speed equipment and machining.

[Mike Bresnahan]

I built a Sportsman a couple years ago. I chose to go the "built" route because the parts car I purchased had a "running" engine... Turned out that engine was a hunk of S and was basically on it's last leg, which is fine that's the risk in buying anything used.

When it was all said and done I had about 7k in updating and rebuilding that engine. Most of that expense was parts, I have zero issues with the labor costs. However, if I had to do it all over again I would've just bought the crate engine to begin with. Cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain, and in my opinion, I'll trade some horsepower if it means reliability thus letting me focus more on chassis and handling.

Crate Motors may have hurt a few engine builders but they have helped just as many. I know quite a few that have transformed "blueprinting" these engines into a large part of their business model, in addition to selling "crate" headers, carbs, pumps, pulleys etc. which is a whole other issue.

I'm sorry but it's not the racers job to spend more to keep engine builders in business. Most of the rising costs in their field are due to the actual parts and the equipment they use. Rule makers also haven't done them any favors. I feel bad for them, it's a very tough industry.

Unless you're still wearing shoes that can be resoled just so the shoe guy can stay open or your still watching your 1980 Tube TV just so the local repair man can keep his shop open, you really don't have that argument.

[Matt Albee]

Thankfully i do have that argument. I've got a pair of boots that the local shoe shop has re-soled twice for me.
The argument isn't actually whether or not the engine builders, speed shops, and machine shops should be able to stay in business. The argument is whether or not the crate motor has put a lot of those guys out of business while lining the pockets of GM and Ford. The answer to that question is yes. As long as the crate motor isn't " legislated " in, racers will still have an option. And i hope the racer chooses to build their own or have one built by a local shop. I also hope the rules maker don't handicap the built engines just so the crates can keep up. If the crates can't keep up, then make em faster.

[OldSchool+]

"I'm sorry but it's not the racers job to spend more to keep engine builders in business."--Mike B

Agreed, nor the tracks, nor the tire vendors, nor the hot dog stand.

Come up with a better mousetrap (pun intended) and they will come. Or at least that is both the way it used to work and they way to the best product.

But this is a different deal. Legislate crate motors only, and, well, I am going to Yoho's Modified deal in November (at a considerable distance), this weekend the e-mods (crate) are much closer, and I may go, but am not nearly as motivated. So, exclusively legislating a crate engine may hurt attendance. On the other hand, exclusive built-motors may limit car count, which then may limit attendance. Mix them, and run a weight break, and one bunch or the other (and possibly both) will feel slighted, and on and on...

But, as mentioned, make sure they are all inexpensive, open up the camshaft, and if they go boom once in a while, well, they were affordable.

[Mike Bresnahan]

Any Performance Engine Builder whose dependent on street stock or sportsman level engines never really had a good business plan to begin with. Most of the smart ones focus more on Classic Cars, Hot Rods, V8 Boats and such as their core business and will do the short track stuff more as a hobby. They all love seeing their engines win, but imagine having a guy drop you off a box of parts and expecting you to build him something fast that will last 10,000 laps at over 7000 rpms? And when it doesn't, do you think people know the customer brought you junk to begin with? Or do you think the bigger (and wrong) message that gets out is that Joe Bob the Builder just had another engine grenade? So for that reason, the "good" builders will make you start with all new stuff because it's their reputation on the line, thus the reason why building a quality motor is so expensive.

Word of engines breaking spread like wild fire. Before you know it that builder who was doing someone a favor by building something "cheap" can't get anyone to bring him anything anymore... Damn those Crate Engines!!!

[Phil Jacques]

Crate Engines should NEVER be the sole engine provided for a division. NEVER That is what ruins racing... ACT Late Models, while I crew cheif two of them, are the most pathetic excuse for a division. Where is the personality? Sure, it makes it more about the driver but isn't racing supposed to be the whole package? Car + Driver? In my eyes, yes... It is.

This discussion has gotten WAY off course of the original question but I do appreciate those who chimed in to my original question. Unless something productive or intriguing comes again, this will be my last post of this thread.

Crate Engines should only ever be an option to racers. They are a great option for those on a budget which most of you in FL seem to be. I myself, am on a budget but happen to have an engine shop here that takes care of me. My new engine will be able to compete with the rest of the guys spending twice what I am. A lot of the price of engines from engine builders is inflated labor costs which in my eyes is complete crap and I kind of believe the engine builders are hurting themselves a lot of times by over charging and being greedy which has pushed more and more drivers to go with the less expensive crate engine.

My sole purpose for the question as I stated was because I intend on having two cars but regardless of if I have that 2nd car or not, I would like to definitely have a backup engine and would rather not break the bank on something that might not be used every week. I would likely keep the built engine for a main engine because like I said, the plan is to run the high banks of NSS and getting down the straights is just as key there as getting through the corners but I wanted to know that if I were to have to change an engine due to an issue, if I got a crate or had the crate in a secondary car, it would still be competitive.

[Mike Bresnahan]

Imagine if these Speed Shops that have "gone out of business" had said - "yes sir you're right, the crate is a cheaper option. But you'll want the right distributer, carb, headers and I've even got a pulley system that will save you 8hp!! I'll tell you what, I can order it for you from GM and you can get all these other parts right through me. For an extra $500 I'll put all this stuff on it and break it in on my run stand. You'll be able to pick it up from me at the end of the week, drop it in and go racing!!!"

Now, whether they are good or not for racing in general is a whole other argument. Just like Driod Vs Apple. Individuals have needs that may or may not be met by one product or the other.

[Mike Bresnahan]

Sorry for getting off subject Phil.

In my opinion, which ever you choose for your "primary" motor should also be your choice for a back up engine. If not you will need to buy parts just in case you ever have to switch. Carbs are different. Gears will be different, so if you run a 9" that can really add up, chunks aren't cheap. In most cases the chassis set-up will be quite different... just something else to consider.

[OldSchool+]

"...the plan is to run the high banks of NSS and getting down the straights is just as key there as getting through the corners." --PJ

Moreso, IMO.

[B-dub]

Crate motor is they way to go for budget racer, 93 octane fuel, mine is completely stock just put a 7" pan on it. It allows you to work on chassis more and get through corners, that in turn make you able to use the horsepower rather than spinning the tires.
Aaron Williamson

[Phil Jacques]

Tube car has Winters QC so really wouldn't worry too much about gearing cause I have many options in gears already from a 511 to about a 630 already from the guy I got the car from and I already have a nicely prepped VDL 650 from the Outlaw in my signature pic I would just have to verify that it would pass track gauges before use. Sure, the setup would be different but I really am not sure it would be different enough to make a huge difference. It's likely that if I lost a motor at the track, unless it happened in the first round of practice and I had the backup and time to swap I would just pack it up, park the trailer outside the track and drink beer the rest of the night and support my friends.

Most likely, I will have 2 cars unless I bend the hell out of the G car here before I come back next year... The G car wouldn't be worth selling for the financial loss here regardless so it would be better to just keep it and cut it up when I am done or let friends have some fun in it. I doubt anyone really cares for G car sportsman anymore and wouldn't be worth much as a Super Stock because of the changes it would require to revert it back to one, so might as well just keep it and race it till it's bent to hell lmfao

[Mike Bresnahan]

I'm not sure how much extra HP a quick change takes up Vs. just a 9" and how that would effect a Crate Car? I'm sure there are some guys on here that have them and could shed some light on it...

As far as chassis changes between the two, the rules are different for total and left side weight, so you'll have to change that as well as account for weight differences with the engine itself. If you're at the track thrashing after a blown engine you surely wouldn't worry about shocks and springs but after some testing time I think you may be surprised at how different the set-ups would end up being.

Good Luck!!!