Question for the Sportsman guys.. Built vs Crate?

[Lurkin]

This thread is right on time, I've been wondering about this.

[Matt Albee]

All the guys with crate motors say they go much longer between rebuilds. I have trouble believing that. Why would that be? A competent engine builder can clearance an engine just as well as the crate motor assembly line at GM and Ford. Does the race engine builder use parts and pieces that aren't as good a quality as the crates? I don't know why that would be the case.

[Phil Jacques]

This thread is right on time, I've been wondering about this.

I come up with something intelligent once in a while, right?

[Phil Jacques]

All the guys with crate motors say they go much longer between rebuilds. I have trouble believing that. Why would that be? A competent engine builder can clearance an engine just as well as the crate motor assembly line at GM and Ford. Does the race engine builder use parts and pieces that aren't as good a quality as the crates? I don't know why that would be the case.

Well I know with the Crate Motors here, they all run about 6200rpm. My built motor turns 7200... 1000rpm doesnt seem like a lot to some, but it really can make or break an engine and definitely means a ton in terms of longevity. The Late Model I work on has almost 50 races on the 603 in it, and was still running top 3 competitive on a weekly basis before the car got destroyed 2 weeks ago. So there is definitely a lot of truth to the longevity.

[Patrick Thomas 25]

The difference in RPM's is part of it, you only turn the crate motor 6,100 to 6,300 Rpm's. The built motor guys turn the motors way more Rpm's.

Also the engine builders use the lightest, smallest parts money can buy for a good motor. Small, light parts wear faster than the heavy factory stuff that is being built by GM, in the crates.

I am not talking about the 604 chevy or the 347 ford pro late model motors, I have no knowledge of those motors whatsoever. I am only talking about my knowledge of the GM 602 sportsman motor.

Patrick Thomas 25

[dd38]

I don't race as much as I once did because #1 main reason is I have some personal issues that don't concern any of you and don't have any business needing to know.

#2 is not the engine cost. It is what it costs to run the car. It would be the same with any engine. Remember also I am the only one that supports my car. I don't have any family members that help let alone any Sponsors. Plus like I said before I prefer to spend my money locally and keeping someone in business.

#3 I also have found other things I like to do as go spend time in my house in Tennessee (not racing has afforded me this luxury) away from this Hell Hole called Florida.

Racing is not a priority for me any more. I could take it or leave it. Anybody that knows me from the late 70's on know how much I raced back then. If the lights were on and the gates were open I was there. You all were just a thought in somebody's mind back then. Go ask Buzzy how much I raced then. It's just not a priority anymore. So don't criticize me unless you know the facts!

P.S. Patrick, What ever happened to the Bump Steer Gauge?

[Lurkin]

I live in PCola and have been eyeing possibly getting back into the seat at some point. Their Sportsmen (and Mobile), which are one class below regular Florida Sportsman and are more like Street Stocks, run the 602 or a built motor. 602's have to run the MSD Soft Touch 6200 chip. Both built and Crate Motors have to run a 456 gear. They also can't buy more than two tires at a time and two tires are impounded after every race. They have a pretty strong field of cars every week but I have no idea how many guys run the crate but if you guys are running them competitively I'd imagine they'd be competitive here. BTW if you look at 5 Flags rules Florida Sportsman are called Super Stock. I don't know what the rules are for Super Stock (your sportsman) but the car count has been disappointing all year.

[Phil Jacques]

I live in PCola and have been eyeing possibly getting back into the seat at some point. Their Sportsmen (and Mobile), which are one class below regular Florida Sportsman and are more like Street Stocks, run the 602 or a built motor. 602's have to run the MSD Soft Touch 6200 chip. Both built and Crate Motors have to run a 456 gear. They also can't buy more than two tires at a time and two tires are impounded after every race. They have a pretty strong field of cars every week but I have no idea how many guys run the crate but if you guys are running them competitively I'd imagine they'd be competitive here. BTW if you look at 5 Flags rules Florida Sportsman are called Super Stock. I don't know what the rules are for Super Stock (your sportsman) but the car count has been disappointing all year.

A tire rule is a necessity for all divisions regardless of what anyone says... It helps keep the costs down for the budget teams which is part of what Scott was trying to do with the Hoosier 800 deal. Tires and Fuel are a race teams two biggest weekly expenses. Sportsman class and lower should run nothing but 93 octane MAX and have a 4-2-2 (or similar) tire rule... Simple way to bring back a ton of parked cars right there, but that's a different discussion so I won't get off track.

The Super Stock you speak of sounds a lot like my Limited Sportsman... We run 88 Monte bodies up here. I will likely keep that car with an 88 monte body when it comes down, but it's so far ahead of a NSS Super Stock it's not even funny. Would be easier for me to just change the cam and put a 3 link with 9" in and make it a sportsman than to convert it down to a Super Stock lol

I think the closest thing I see up here to the Sportsman engine package down there seems to be Seekonk Speedway where half the field has 602 and half the field has built engines...

[Patrick Thomas 25]

Lurkin, we were at the last Blizzard race helping David Rogers, talked to Ricky Brooks several times about running my 602 crate sportsman in the Derby. He came up with a reasonable weight break for my car, and we are planning on running the derby for the super stocks with my car. Hopefully being down 60 plus horsepower, will be able to be overcome by less weight. We will see in December. Look me up derby week, will be crewing for David Rogers in the super, and Brad May in the pros.

Patrick Thomas 25

[RSB]

A friend of mine bought a 602 and raced it 36 times with several wins up at Columbia Motorsports. He changed the oil every few races or three and never even pulled a valve cover! He's lazy that way.
Was still running strong and had good compression when I sold it for him.

[Lurkin]

Will do Patrick, hope you get to run.

Phil, Super Stock over here is actually above Sportsman down there. Dave Mader told me his is an old Southern All Stars Late Model. It kind of bums me out because the diversity of the class is going away and it's turning into just another ABC class :/

[xracer54]

hey DD38

Come on Rabbit, you know that you are just getting TOO OLD FOR THIS ANYMORE, and thats why you dont show up much now![UOTE=dd38;151026]I don't race as much as I once did because #1 main reason is I have some personal issues that don't concern any of you and don't have any business needing to know.

#2 is not the engine cost. It is what it costs to run the car. It would be the same with any engine. Remember also I am the only one that supports my car. I don't have any family members that help let alone any Sponsors. Plus like I said before I prefer to spend my money locally and keeping someone in business.

#3 I also have found other things I like to do as go spend time in my house in Tennessee (not racing has afforded me this luxury) away from this Hell Hole called Florida.

Racing is not a priority for me any more. I could take it or leave it. Anybody that knows me from the late 70's on know how much I raced back then. If the lights were on and the gates were open I was there. You all were just a thought in somebody's mind back then. Go ask Buzzy how much I raced then. It's just not a priority anymore. So don't criticize me unless you know the facts!

P.S. Patrick, What ever happened to the Bump Steer Gauge?[/QUOTE]

[dd38]

All I did was state my own opinion and now I'm getting slammed. That's what is wrong with this board. Gotta slam someone. Especially you Russ. You are right in one thing you said. I am too old is one of the reasons, being on the downside of 58. That's why I have someone drive for me now and he has commitments. That is 1 reason I don't run the car much. His commitments are priority #1. And if you all must know I have medical issues I'm dealing with and have been for several years. At least I am smart enough to step out of the car as to not put others in danger unlike most others! Been trying to run the thing since late August and it either rains or he has a commitment with someone. Then the jerk closes the track at Speed World to Stock Cars. So any suggestions? Where do you get this Rabbit shit from Russ?



P.S. I know you look at this all the time. So I'll ask again. What happened to the Bump Steer gauge Patrick???

[Patrick Thomas 25]

It was returned to Buzzy in the big aluminum box, probably 10 years ago.

I'm not slamming you Dave, you just make yourself an easy target, because you are predictable. Your opinion is your opinion, I feel your opinion has no merit, you and most people paying crazy high prices for built motors when the option to run a more affordable motor package that gets the job done. That is the option I choose to run.

Patrick Thomas 25

[OldSchool+]

apples & oranges?

Phil asked a question of the Sportsman Guys. Obviously I am not one of them. But here might be some things to ponder for Phil and those who are.

Seems to me it is an "apples and oranges" discussion.

Crate motors are "best" for those on a budget. No doubt.

But as a spectator, who doesn't want to hear the crisp ring of that extra RPM?

As a competitor--you are always looking for the mechanical edge. Traditionally, the first place to look is under the hood.

As a competitor, who doesn't want the ability to out-accelerate someone coming off a corner? Who doesn't want more RPM?

If you had a car owner with deep pockets, and he asked your choice-any choice, am guessing that choice would be a built motor.

Possibly a $10k motor, if it is faster and he can afford it.

Which brings us full circle, money reduces fields and then they dissapear altogether.

Apples and oranges...

A possible solution: Limit the parts and pieces in a "built" motor to approximate a crate motor, and maybe open the cam choice up for crate motors.

That way, it may be cheaper to buy a crate and change the cam than pay for a built motor, and home builders may be able to save a little over even a crate.

Downsides(there almost always are some...)--the current built motor guys need a new motor, and engine builders need to figure out how to make money at a lower price point.