ATTN: Sportsman, ProTruck, Super Stock and Street Stock Competitors

[Matt Albee]

I guess the first question would be " what are Street Stocks doing on race tires "? Doesn't that make the class designation a little bit of a joke?
If these Showtime spec tires are really the reason for the big car counts in Street Stock up there, ( they aren't ), then i'm sure the other tracks would have followed their lead.

[Racer1]

Well it is 2014, about to be 2015! Radials are a thing of the past
And are very hard to get in a 15" tire anymore as cars don't come with that size wheel anymore. I've ran the same lap time on a firehawks radial as I have an Hoosier camanchi and there cheaper and last near the same. And no it might not be the whole reason that showtime has a lot of cars but it's the best racing around in the street stocks as the tires don't fall off, and yes I know for a fact because I run there and win there. I like to travel to different tracks and race but with different tire rules and tracks who run the 450 and 650 it's just a tire game. ???

[victory10]

raced Kalamazoo for many years and won a championship there in the sportsman class. The 800 is an awesome tire as far as lasting is concerned and it is a great equalizer.

I can tell you all this when it comes to racing down here. The rules are plain stupid, the owners are the ONLY one making any money when they sell tires for at least $30-$40 more than what we could buy them for in Michigan and the tire choice that is being used down here is only being used because it does not last and that means more money for the track. There is no cars racing down here because it is ignorant to load up and know before you leave that even if you win, by the time you pay for a parking spot, pay an entry fee, buy at least 2 tires every night for $120+ each, pay $10 for racing fuel, buy 3-4 pit passes, you will lose a couple hundred bucks

. Affording to go racing is not a problem for me BUT, common sense is common sense. I love racing and have done it for 30+ years., won several championships, races and big shows at tracks all over Michigan and Indiana and it is common sense for me to let my stuff sit and not go racing until some track decides to cut some costs for the racer, the rules become more up to speed with such things as one motor rule, one carb rule, better brake systems, safer spindles, and tubular Camaro clips being allowed seeing how the stock clips are becoming very scarce and that will only get harder and harder. Make it so a guy can go racing and at least have a CHANCE to at least break even and car count would increase I am sure.

This crate motor rule is ignorant when I have found several places that can tear a brand new crate motor apart for me, completely "trick" it up and reseal it so it looks like its never been touched. Either run the crate motor for every car or open up the motor rule and do away with all the ignorant rules like no roller cams, flat top pistons only, no porting or polishing, etc. etc. If the open motor has to run a 2 barrel than let them do as they wish just like those with crate motors can do without anyone being able to notice it has been touched yet they can run a 4 barrel (MAKES ZERO SENSE). The rules are ridiculous and there are WAY TOO MANY when each track is hurting for car count.

they have pretty much done away with the pro late model class so why not change the rules to allow 5x5 racing hubs, 4 piston calipers, racing spindles and racing clutches that are safe and made for racing. That would open the door for a lot of them pro lates or older, outdated, late models sitting around that cannot compete with all the new technology being used. I am not trying to beat on anyone or bash any track BUT, as long as I have been around the sport and for all the tracks I have raced at or visited all over the country, the rules down here are so far off with the times its not even funny. Until things are opened up a bit and the costs go down some, I don't see anything changing as far as count goes. I know the ones I have are going to sit and if things remain as they are, I will sell em, buy a car to have when I go up to visit in Michigan. BTW, the numbers are down a little up there but NOTHING like it is down here. Saddest part to me is, down here, the weather is awesome 10 months out of the year and there is so much more opportunity to race which, if things would open up a bit and costs would go down, that would mean more chances for revenue for the track owners.

[Matt Albee]

Good post. If the crates are easy to cheat up, then we have to assume that many of them are cheated up. And if they're not legal crate engines, then they're built engines. And if they're built engines already anyway, then drop the crate engine designation and write one set of rules for built engines. A legal crate engine would fit those rules too, so nobody gets left out but everybody can race what they have. And if a legal crate engine can't quite keep up with the cheated up or built engines, then swap cams and go faster.

[Matt Albee]

Well it is 2014, about to be 2015! Radials are a thing of the past
And are very hard to get in a 15" tire anymore as cars don't come with that size wheel anymore. I've ran the same lap time on a firehawks radial as I have an Hoosier camanchi and there cheaper and last near the same. And no it might not be the whole reason that showtime has a lot of cars but it's the best racing around in the street stocks as the tires don't fall off, and yes I know for a fact because I run there and win there. I like to travel to different tracks and race but with different tire rules and tracks who run the 450 and 650 it's just a tire game. ???

Showtime has always had good car counts in the lower classes, i don't think it's anything yoho is or isn't doing. From what i read on here, the track is surviving in spite of him, not because of him.
But the great tire debate of 2014 rages on. I know the 15" tire is a thing of the past. But if you move to 16" or 7" then everybody has to buy new wheels.

[scottgarrity07]

Todd, you're a good guy but you're opinion is skewed on this Crate thing. The two winningest Sportsman Crates in Central FL have recently been scattered by tech guru Ricky Brooks and found legal. Just because Crates are winning all the races doesnt make them illlegal. What it comes down to is competition in the Sportsman class in Central FL is TOUGH. Those same two crate cars just went to Pensacola and SMOKED the locals, who, by the way, are allowed all those things you'd like to see legal. They beat big open motors and the 50hp greater 604 crates. The Sportsman class is on the rise locally with some good car counts lately and crates are almost exclusively being used now. The seals really don't matter anymore since these motors are being torn down. I wouldn't expect to see any of the changes you mentioned anytime soon. The Pro Lates aren't in as much as a decline as you think either. Desoto is now running them. And there were 80, yes 80 of them trying to qualify for 34 spots at the Snowflake 100 at Pensacola last weekend. This crate subject, however, is a topic for another thread. This long-running thread is all about "The Great Tire Debate of 2014". And true, Matt, it rages on...

Some new twists in the debate have risen. A few weeks ago I noticed on Bronson's Facebook page the race director talking about going to a slick for Sportsman in 2015. This threw me for a loop. Then he talked about a "new" Hoosier tire being tested in FL in December. Now I was baffled. Expecting a decision by now from NSS, I assumed my nemesis from Hoosier South, Jeff, had stuck a stick in the spokes and had an evil plot to put us on a soft quick wearing tire all while piping the chicken little Nerone mantra that the 800 was unsafe. But just recently I have gotten some info from Secret Agent Phil Jacques that Stafford Motor Speedway (where our venerable used 800 test tires were acquired from) had conducted a tire test of a "new" Hoosier tire that indeed is a slick. This tire endured 20 heat cycles of over 500 laps on a Sportsman-type car AND THE TIRES FELL OFF LESS THAN HALF A TENTH! The number of this new Hoosier with super-tire capabilities is the HOOSIER 2040. Can this be the "mystery tire" that Jeff spoke of? Will I have to eat my words and (gasp) proclaim that Matt Albee was right? What is it that makes this tire so good? Titanium belts? Is it made of FLUBBER??? And so the plot thickens. Stay tuned as we will find out soon. As the Hoosier turns...

[scottgarrity07]

And for the record, the Hoosier 750 is not a new tire, just a slightly harder version of exactly what we have now. The 2040 slick IS the new tire from Hoosier. It boils down to this, if the tracks are in the "tire selling business" and view a major portion of their profit needing to come from tire sales we will stay on what we have or get a MINOR concession with the 750. If they are in the "racing business" and want to make an effort to reduce costs for racers, increase car counts and by doing so put on a better show for the fans they will go to the 800 or try this NEW 2040. One thing I am positive of is that by going to something like the 750 (splitting the difference) costs for racers like me (already racing) will go down by enabling 2-3 races on a set of tires. Good for my own personal agenda, for sure. However, this will do NOTHING to get NEW cars into the support divisions and increase car counts by having a larger pool of cars to draw from on a weekly basis. Nor is the 750 a viable "take off" tire for the lower classes. In a previous post above, Todd Foote (a veteran Champion Sportsman racer from MI) stated from experience racing on it "The 800 is an awesome tire as far as lasting is concerned and it is a great equalizer". That's what can get cars out of mothballs, a tire that is a "great equalizer". While Don Nerone criticizes this thread as being "horse crap" (and I question his personal agenda), I appreciate all the racers comments and observations because, at the very least, it appears we have gotten the wheels turning enough to get us off the awful 650/450 combination. Without this thread I'm positive that would have not happened. What is still in question is how far the tracks will go in regards to the new tire choice and the risk of losing some profit in an attempt to increase overall car counts and put on a better show for the fans. We will see. Thanks to everyone who has helped in this effort.

[scottgarrity07]

As we speak testing has been/is being done at every asphalt track in FL with the 750 and the different 800-S tire. The decision from the tracks will be forthcoming. The 800 that we tested is not part of the current test. One thing I find amusing is that the testing being done under the supervision of Hoosier Tire South's Jeff is being conducted EXACTLY like the test we "idiots" performed at NSS in October. Jeff is saying that this 750 is a new tire, not the old 750. He is also saying that the 800S is a new tire ( though I've heard of it being used for a few years in the Midwest). Hopefully ALL the tracks go to whatever tire is chosen, so that racers can take advantage of a longer lasting tire and compete at tracks other than their home track and help boost car counts everywhere. Ultimately, regardless of what tire that is chosen, the true test will be each individual racers assessment as to how many races the new tire will be "good enough to win on" for their particular class at their particular track. One thing seems certain, the "one race" 650/450 combo is dead here in FL. That's a very good thing for all us support class racers. At the very least, the new tire chosen will last two races. Hopefully it will last 3, 4, or 5+. Thanks again to everyone who got off their asses to make this happen. You saw this as a worthwhile issue and through the power of KARNAC we made it happen. Thanks to NSS for keeping the pressure on Jeff. Thanks to Critter for getting the ball rolling. Thanks to Patrick Thomas, Shannon Kelly (who tested TWICE), Donny Williams, Daniel Webster (also testing twice), Aaron Williamson and whoever else makes the sacrifice to test. And Thanks to Phil Jacques for getting a good used set of 800's. So for all you support class racers, we just doubled your tire budget for 2015 at the very least. Probably more like tripled or hopefully quadrupled! Y'all can thank any of us when you see us! Personally, I'm excited to get ready to do a lot more racing in 2015 than I have done in the past few years. Peace out...

[Patrick Thomas 25]

This will be my last post on this tire deal. The tire that we ended up getting is pretty amazing. The R750 has turned out to be a great tire, not only does it have good grip, it lasts really well, and repeats from one week to the next. We have run 4 races at Newsmyrna in the sportsman class this year, I bought a set of tires for the opening night and ran that set for week 1 and week 2. Then I ran about 60 laps at a Thursday night test and tune, trying to get my car back right from a week 1 crash that bent the front clip. I then ran the same tires in practice and the heat race on week 3. I purchased a second set of tires to race the feature on night 3. For week 4 we put our first set of tires back on that already had about 140 laps on them, we planned to practice on them and run the heat race on them, then change and put my tires from night 3 with only about 30 laps on them. After the heat race I made the decision that the older tires would be fine to race on again. The older tires in Practice were only a tenth slower than the newer tires, and since I have no sponsors, I chose to get more life out of the older tires. It worked the old tires held out, and the car was still fast enough to get the job done.

Thank you Kim Brown for listening to the racers and helping us save a little tire money. It's also great to see this same R750 on the modifieds beat the cars that were still on slicks. The Sportsman car count at Newsmyrna I believe is a direct result of this tire we are racing on.

Patrick Thomas 25

[Lurkin]

That's great news. I think PCola went to this same tire? Also I saw the 151, which I think is the car that won the SBD, at 5 Flags Friday night. Did he sell it to someone up here?