Citrus Mods going to slicks

[Matt Albee]

The purse at short tracks comes from the front and back injector along with whatever lap money the track owner can come up with from local sponsors or fans. The purse at very successful short tracks and ALL major series comes from corporate sponsors. The France family does not use the injector money to pay the purse, they use the tv money, the Nextel money, the Home Depot money, The Coca-Cola money, the Budweiser money, the Oscar Meyer money, the Lowes money, the Goodyear money, the Chevrolet money, the Toyota money, the Ford money, the Burger King money.........
The front injector money goes right into their pockets. Successful short tracks and series use the very same money from the very same sources, just in smaller proportions and with local branches of those and many other national companies as well as local ones..

[Matt Albee]

Never in the history of racing has the competition gotten closer by making the cars faster. Slicks are going to make the outside faster but it's damn sure gonna make the inside faster too...

You might very well be right, but every real race car and race series uses wide slicks. There's gotta be a reason.
And that reason is handling. In spite of the best efforts of some to prove otherwise, skinny rock hard tires make for far more spins and crashes in short track racing. On dirt and absolutely on asphalt. More spins mean more boring cautions. More boring cautions mean no flow to the race, no flow to the race means fans and drivers both are just wishing the race would get over.
If tires gave ALL the cars better handling, that would mean less spins, less cautions. And as you mentioned, it makes for two wide racing in the corners. That improves the show. And isn't that the whole point ?
And i'll say it again, tires DO NOT determine who wins. The front runners will be front runners on any tire you give them. It's up to the other drivers to improve their driving, their chassis setup, their engine tuning skills to become one of the front runners.

[openwm53]

Amen!!!!!!!

If tires gave ALL the cars better handling, that would mean less spins, less cautions. And as you mentioned, it makes for two wide racing in the corners. That improves the show. And isn't that the whole point ?
And i'll say it again, tires DO NOT determine who wins. The front runners will be front runners on any tire you give them. It's up to the other drivers to improve their driving, their chassis setup, their engine tuning skills to become one of the front runners.[/QUOTE]

Good tires....even motors......setup.....shut up and drive.......Hel% yeah

[scottgarrity07]

Tires CAN determine who will win in the OWMs because of the different motors guys run. Tires WILL determine who wins in Sportsman because of the Crate vs Open motor difference (about 25-30 hp). You have to wrap your head around the FACT that the more tire you give a division, the more motor matters and the less setup matters. The less traction you have the more setup matters. If you don't understand that, you are missing the point. In other divisions where the rules mandate everything you can do in the motor, I agree, tires will not determine who will win. A good setup and good driver will win. But putting low-buck divisons on expensive tires will shrink the fields due to cost.

Check out this tire spec chart from Hoosier. (Scroll down to the Oval Asphalt section)

http://www.hoosiertire.com/otatire.htm

Under the list of tires is a chart that shows you the hardness. You will see that the NEW 8' slick for mods (F53) is actually a little softer on the right and a little harder on the left than the ribbed tires (S650 on the R, S450 in the L). So it should work out for those guys to maybe make them a just a little faster AND give them a tire that will last 2 nights instead of 1 race. Good call in my book and most OWM drivers seem to agree. You have to admit, tires that are faster, don't tip the scales too much toward the big motor guys AND will last longer (2 races instead of 1) are a good call. Plus they will now have the same tire all around the car instead of dedicated lefts or rights. I'd like to see them test these same tires with the Sportsman with a good Crate guy going against a good Open motor guy. Going to 10" slicks will tip the scales too much toward the big motors and shrink the fields. It's not the difference in price of the tires that bankrupts anyone, its having to have the absolute best motor the rules will allow that will. Upon thinking about it, if Sportsman went to a 10" slick, I wouldn't race less often. I'd park it until I could afford to build the best Open motor that the rules allow (around 10K compared to the 3k for the crate I already own and add another $800 for a new carburetor). "If I can't compete, I ain't comin' out".-The Competitive Racer's Mantra

I used to race a Super Late Model on a track very similar to New Smyrna. The American Racer 10" slick we ran had so much grip that you entered the cornered, stabbed the brake quick and FLOORED it. Even with all that HP the tire had so much grip you could feel that the car had more grip than motor AND THAT WAS IN A SUPER! In a limited HP class a 10" slick would likely cause the drivers to be able to just about flat foot it all the way around the track. When that's the case, motor wins every time. BORING! Each division needs to be on the right tire for them. Super are, OWMs now seem to be and there needs to be some work on the rest. I think after the ribbed tires are all gone from the tracks tire barns the Sportsman and Trucks will be on the slick too (as they are at Showtime). The track owners don't want to have to carry too many types of tires. So I think you're right that the ribbed tire is on it's way out. At least in FL.

[Matt Albee]

Reduced down, your argument is that slicks " will give them big motor cars an advantage ". But you and I can both name plenty of " big motor " cars that never win and probably never will. Reason? Driver and total car setup. Dad can buy you the very biggest and best, but you still have to know what to do with it to win. Tires have nothing to do with it. You can drag the front runners down to everyone elses level and they'll still beat you every week. The answer isn't making them worse, it's making the rest better.
The same goes for crate classes. The guys who win are better at setting up the cars, they're better at tuning engines, and they're usually better drivers.
Tire rules aren't going to keep them from winning. If everyone is going to rely on making the front runners slower instead of getting faster themselves, the sport is doomed.

[scottgarrity07]

No. In the simplest terms? 8" ribbed no last-no good, new 8" slick good, 10" slick "give them big motor cars an advantage". It isn't anyone's intent to handicap the front runners. It's all about keeping us from going broke and trying to get the fields bigger. That's why the rule change was made to put the OWM's on the F53. Tires have a lot to do with it because it is the racers biggest expense. But as a Racer you need to feel that you have a chance. If you don't feel that you have a chance then you are not going to spend your hard earned cash to compete. Even then, it's one hell of a challenge and expensive as hell. And that challenge is what keeps us addicted. It's so hard to win but when you do? Man, I can't think of as many things in life as gratifying. Matt, we need a full pit area (and full fields) to make the fans we still have left to want to come out. These 4 or 5 car fields I've seen at times are not going to fill the grandstands and WILL doom the sport. Drivers need to feel that they can come to the track and compete on a regular basis without having to mortgage their homes and go bankrupt. In turn, we Drivers have an obligation to keep our heads together and put on a great "rubbin' is racin" show for you fans without losing our heads and wrecking each other and having awful marathon crashfest shows. We may not always agree, but one thing WE ALL have in common is that we want to see this sport thrive here because we all love it. I'm optimistic. Even though it's in baby steps, things are slowly getting better.

[openwm53]

scott

Tires CAN determine who will win in the OWMs because of the different motors guys run. Tires WILL determine who wins in Sportsman because of the Crate vs Open motor difference (about 25-30 hp). You have to wrap your head around the FACT that the more tire you give a division, the more motor matters and the less setup matters. The less traction you have the more setup matters. If you don't understand that, you are missing the point. In other divisions where the rules mandate everything you can do in the motor, I agree, tires will not determine who will win. A good setup and good driver will win. But putting low-buck divisons on expensive tires will shrink the fields due to cost.

Check out this tire spec chart from Hoosier. (Scroll down to the Oval Asphalt section)

http://www.hoosiertire.com/otatire.htm

Under the list of tires is a chart that shows you the hardness. You will see that the NEW 8' slick for mods (F53) is actually a little softer on the right and a little harder on the left than the ribbed tires (S650 on the R, S450 in the L). So it should work out for those guys to maybe make them a just a little faster AND give them a tire that will last 2 nights instead of 1 race. Good call in my book and most OWM drivers seem to agree. You have to admit, tires that are faster, don't tip the scales too much toward the big motor guys AND will last longer (2 races instead of 1) are a good call. Plus they will now have the same tire all around the car instead of dedicated lefts or rights. I'd like to see them test these same tires with the Sportsman with a good Crate guy going against a good Open motor guy. Going to 10" slicks will tip the scales too much toward the big motors and shrink the fields. It's not the difference in price of the tires that bankrupts anyone, its having to have the absolute best motor the rules will allow that will. Upon thinking about it, if Sportsman went to a 10" slick, I wouldn't race less often. I'd park it until I could afford to build the best Open motor that the rules allow (around 10K compared to the 3k for the crate I already own and add another $800 for a new carburetor). "If I can't compete, I ain't comin' out".-The Competitive Racer's Mantra

I used to race a Super Late Model on a track very similar to New Smyrna. The American Racer 10" slick we ran had so much grip that you entered the cornered, stabbed the brake quick and FLOORED it. Even with all that HP the tire had so much grip you could feel that the car had more grip than motor AND THAT WAS IN A SUPER! In a limited HP class a 10" slick would likely cause the drivers to be able to just about flat foot it all the way around the track. When that's the case, motor wins every time. BORING! Each division needs to be on the right tire for them. Super are, OWMs now seem to be and there needs to be some work on the rest. I think after the ribbed tires are all gone from the tracks tire barns the Sportsman and Trucks will be on the slick too (as they are at Showtime). The track owners don't want to have to carry too many types of tires. So I think you're right that the ribbed tire is on it's way out. At least in FL.

Great points.........with facts.......well done

[fred23]

Bottom line is this.......there will always be people that have more money and buy the best equipment, pay someone to set up their car and buy 4 new tires every night.......that won't go away......

My father won two sportsman track championships at NSS a couple of years back......back when they were on 10" tires.......he bought 8 new tires the entire 2nd year......he ran take offs the entire year usually for 2 or 3 weeks......with the ability to run take offs and be competitive he could afford to race every week and did.......when they went to the airplane tires he had to buy NEW tires because there were no take offs to get, he had to buy new tires more often because the airplane tires SUCKED after one night......he now has an emod that run on airplane tires at NSS and hates them......plus he can't race all the time because he doesn't want to spend $600 a night to race for $300.

Give the ham and egger guy a chance to race on decent tires and more will show up. The slicks last at least 2 weeks and if you no how to "manage" your tires 3 or 4 on the left side......plus there will be take offs for guys to get for less money.

IF you are a front runner, middle of the pack or field filler you will still be that whatever tire you run on......the only real HP track is NSS.......

The airplane tire experiment did not work out for the racer, and probably not for the tracks either since a lot of guys quit showing up as often......slicks won't fix the problem of car counts but I bet it helps some.

[Matt Albee]

No. In the simplest terms? 8" ribbed no last-no good, new 8" slick good, 10" slick "give them big motor cars an advantage". It isn't anyone's intent to handicap the front runners. It's all about keeping us from going broke and trying to get the fields bigger. That's why the rule change was made to put the OWM's on the F53. Tires have a lot to do with it because it is the racers biggest expense. But as a Racer you need to feel that you have a chance. If you don't feel that you have a chance then you are not going to spend your hard earned cash to compete. Even then, it's one hell of a challenge and expensive as hell. And that challenge is what keeps us addicted. It's so hard to win but when you do? Man, I can't think of as many things in life as gratifying. Matt, we need a full pit area (and full fields) to make the fans we still have left to want to come out. These 4 or 5 car fields I've seen at times are not going to fill the grandstands and WILL doom the sport. Drivers need to feel that they can come to the track and compete on a regular basis without having to mortgage their homes and go bankrupt. In turn, we Drivers have an obligation to keep our heads together and put on a great "rubbin' is racin" show for you fans without losing our heads and wrecking each other and having awful marathon crashfest shows. We may not always agree, but one thing WE ALL have in common is that we want to see this sport thrive here because we all love it. I'm optimistic. Even though it's in baby steps, things are slowly getting better.

I still read your thinking as " I don't want to spend money to go fast, I want to slow everyone else down to my pace and my budget". The solution there is just drop down a class.
Racing on a budget is most guy's problem. But most guys are adding parts and pieces every chance they can in order to go faster. And trying to learn how to set up the car and how to drive better of course.
I was hoping some " experts " would join this thread and answer some of my questions. Thanks to Scott we now know approx. cost of ribbed tires and of 10 inch slicks. What we still don't know for a certainty is how many nights the ribbed tires last, and how many nights the hardest 10 inch slicks last on the same cars. We also don't have any information on how many nights take- off 10 inch slicks would last on a lower class car. And we can only guess at the price of track controlled take offs. My guess would be $50.00 ea., and i'd think most lower class cars would jump at that.
I've heard from enough racers concerning this thread that I can safely say the majority would love to go to 10 inch slicks for the OWMs and take-offs for everyone else. I even heard from 2 mod mini racers who want to go that route.

[Matt Albee]

As for what does and what doesn't put people thru the front injector, I think all we need to do is look around and realize that nothing we're doing now works. There are lot's of excuses for why theres no racers and no fans anymore, but the only reason I can see is the cars and the racing just aren't very entertaining anymore at local weekly tracks.
I do know for a fact that NASCAR Tour Mods, TBARA ( and other sprint race series ), and whatever they run at Oxford Plains, sure fills the stands. So the closer a weekly event can get to those events, and to those cars, the bigger the crowd you'll have. The question is, what do those cars and series have in common? Several things, the most important is promoters that know what they're doing in most cases. But from a fan's point of view, i think it's speed, sound, and race cars that look like real race cars. And I think that also includes something the aforementioned series have in common. They run tires that look like real race tires.

[8modified]

We will be going to Citrus, FTS and Orlando now that they are on slicks.. We need the tracks to step up and get a 600 to win and 75 to start minimums if not better payouts and pick schedules to work with tracks in there areas.

The tracks needs to stop putting car count based payouts and more cars will come. Yoho does not care about car counts and he always has at least 14 Mods.

This has been a sore subject with our team since we got back into the Mods last year. We went into the Speedweeks races not having run the grooved tires and we learned real fast that they were junk and not saving us any money. We left after 3 nights because we were not happy with the performance or the longevity of the tire.

We had a vote from the Mod racers a couple of months ago and they clearly spoke that they wanted the Slicks, thanks to the promoter and track owner for listening to the racers.

[Doug22176]

Citrus has never based payout on car counts

[Benny The Mule]

I sure better see all of these cars at all of these tracks now that they have tire of choice. Guarantee the cars on jack stands will still be there and no one will travel other than occasionally. And the same thing with telling tracks they need to alternate night only to stay home that night when the driver's local track doesn't race.

So pathetic!

[openwm53]

I see all the cars

I sure better see all of these cars at all of these tracks now that they have tire of choice. Guarantee the cars on jack stands will still be there and no one will travel other than occasionally. And the same thing with telling tracks they need to alternate night only to stay home that night when the driver's local track doesn't race.

So pathetic!

All the time.....most all the folks on here asking for the slicks are real racers that support local tracks all the time. Why would a racer who hasn't been racing care about the tires. The bottom line is Most of the mod drivers wanted their dam slicks back...........the treaded were not what they promised period. Benny stop by and see us at the track....trailer always open and a cold one after the race. 8Modified are you saying that Orlando is on slicks too? What about NSS?

[Benny The Mule]

All the time.....most all the folks on here asking for the slicks are real racers that support local tracks all the time. Why would a racer who hasn't been racing care about the tires. The bottom line is Most of the mod drivers wanted their dam slicks back...........the treaded were not what they promised period. Benny stop by and see us at the track....trailer always open and a cold one after the race. 8Modified are you saying that Orlando is on slicks too? What about NSS?

Orlando and NSS seem to be on another planet right now.

Thanks for the offer.I don't drink beer but don't mind stopping by.

You did see my point though, you obviously have a car and travel. Will this change help?

Will the masses answer and car counts boom?

Will all the tracks see bigger car counts and notice traveling drivers to entice them to put on that big show once a month to draw all of the cars?

I used to run 3 different tracks on the rock hard Comanche. I raced my regular track but would travel to others for "events".