Citrus Mods going to slicks

[Frasson118]

All this talk of buying used tired from the Late Model teams reminded of something I read a few years ago concerning making your racing dollars go further.

It said "Never buy used tires at half price..... you both paid the same amount, but the other guy got the better half.."

If your gonna buy take-offs, you'd better be getting a hell of a deal. Half price is NOT a deal....!

[rmac]

Is there any reason to police it? Look, racers who are smart enough are always going to game the system. Always. But there comes a time when trying to police everything just becomes ridiculous. If a racer figures out a way to get late model guys to buy tires and then sell em to him at reduced prices, how do you plan to stop that? Where treaded tire purchases are already controlled ( how many you can purchase per night ), that same thing has been done for a long time.
From a pure business standpoint, if you only allow 10 inch slicks for all of your classes, the race tire companies don't have to invest in making several types of tires. And that should lower prices for everybody because the 10 inch slick is pretty much universal around the country. And if you use a hardness rule, you can open up tires to more than one manufacturer, competition will reduce the tire prices. Everyone will have access to take offs which will give the faster classes and wealthier teams an outlet for their used tires.
As for trying to control your ability to win by slowing everyone else down to your level, a good driver and good crew chief are going to win regardless of what restrictions you put on them.

We weren't paying less for take-offs we were paying for new tires,just having late model guys buy them. I've been racing for over 30 years and have only seen 1 tire change where the replacement tire was cheaper. The tire co's won't lower their prices. Have you realized that when gas went to $4.00 a gallon race fuel went up but when gas went to $3.25 a gallon race fuel stayed the same?

[scottgarrity07]

Why Matt is Wrong

Matt your pretty good on the granstand side of things but through the pit gate you're way off on this one. Here's why:

1. Racers are competitive by nature. Racers who want to win will NEVER buy used tires. How big will the fields be if Street Stocks, Sportsman and OWM's that want to truly win are forced to buy 10 inch slicks at $620 a set that are good for one race to be competitive?

2. Treaded tire purchases are not controlled. You can buy as many as you want. Only in the FUPS Sportsman, Truck and OWM series is there a limit to how many tires you can buy TO RACE ON per event. 4 or 2. And this is a good thing.

3. The 10 inch slick is only universal for the TOP class at most tracks around the country. (I used to race at Stafford Motor Speedway which is one of the most successful short tracks in the nation and NONE of the classes there race on a 10" slick) Hypothetically, if the tire companies had to only make 10" slicks (fantasyland) the raw materials would still be the same and the price would not go down that much. Competition will not make the price go down because there is none. Good Year dropped out of the short track tire business last year leaving only Hoosier and American Racer as the ONLY two tire companies making asphalt short track tires. If Good Year (one of the largest tire manufacturers in the world) did not see profitability in this market then I would have to believe that tire prices are about as low as they can be already due to the specialization required. Hoosier and American Racer effectively have a monopoly, how is that working out for you at the gas pump with many more oil companies than race tire manufacturers?

4. The more tire that you give people (wider, softer, slick vs. treaded/grooved) the more you make motor matter and the less you make handling (doing your setup homework/ingenuity) matter. To me, what makes this sport great is outhinking your opponent trying something new, not outspending your opponent. NSS tried 10" slicks on OWM's and what you had were small fields with Tank Tucker and Jerry Symmons stinking up the show with their big motors. Now they are great drivers, but does that make a good show? They didn't think so and abandoned that experiment. A good driver and a good crew chief are going to win regardless of what restrictions you put on them because they have a superior setup and make the best of it behind the wheel BUT ONLY if handling matters. An idiot driver with huge pockets with a huge motor and new tires that can handle it, at all costs, will have the ability to stink up the show.

5. Making racing affordable doesn't hurt the show, it only helps the show. Whether you are a Super Late Model team with a NASCAR style double stacker trailer or a Hornet one-man team borrowing your Dad's utility trailer there are a few things all racer's have in common. The most important thing is (for the most part) that we will all run as many races as we can afford to run. I guarantee you as a fan that you would not notice a field 3 tenths to a 1/2 quicker or slower on the stopwatch. But what you would notice is 3 cars racing instead of 26. Although racing is about going as fast as you can it's the COMPETITION that makes stock car racing exciting, not minimal differences in speed. No doubt that you'd rather see a full field racing door to door swapping the lead than 3 cars flat out, a half track apart, a half second faster. Expensive racing=small fields=boring racing.

6. Purses will only increase when car counts, then fan counts increase. The right tire for each division goes a long way to helping this. For the Mod's the 8" semi-hard slick is probably the right answer for the purse they run for and can last 2 nights. Supers have big budgets and a bigger purse and they are gonna buy four tires a night anyway, so the soft 10" slick is right for them. Sportsman (IMHO) need a tire we can get 2 to 3 nights out of and are hard enough to keep the crates and open motors on an even keel. Affordable crates are making the Sportsman class very popular among competitiors to the point that most top teams and race winners are now on the crate. Trucks are all on the same crate motor so tire is least important for them of any division BUT for the money they run for they would be best served to be on the same tire as Sportsman. Streets Stocks, Bombers, etc. are low-buck classes with low-buck purses and need to either be on a street radial OR a ROCK HARD race tire like the Hoosier Commanche that keeps it's speed "until the cords wear through".

The show is built from the back gate. Get the cars to the track and you have big fields. Big fields produce exciting shows. Exciting shows draw the crowds. Big crowds and big fields produce big revenue for track owners. Big crowds will enable racers to lure more sponsorship. More sponsorship will enable racers to compete more often. Big revenue will enable the track owners to increase purses and spend more on advertising and host more big money events. The correct specific tire for each divisions individual needs goes a long way to starting the dominoes falling as described above...

[Matt Albee]

Matt your pretty good on the granstand side of things but through the pit gate you're way off on this one. Here's why:

1. Racers are competitive by nature. Racers who want to win will NEVER buy used tires. How big will the fields be if Street Stocks, Sportsman and OWM's that want to truly win are forced to buy 10 inch slicks at $620 a set that are good for one race to be competitive?

2. Treaded tire purchases are not controlled. You can buy as many as you want. Only in the FUPS Sportsman, Truck and OWM series is there a limit to how many tires you can buy TO RACE ON per event. 4 or 2. And this is a good thing.

3. The 10 inch slick is only universal for the TOP class at most tracks around the country. (I used to race at Stafford Motor Speedway which is one of the most successful short tracks in the nation and NONE of the classes there race on a 10" slick) Hypothetically, if the tire companies had to only make 10" slicks (fantasyland) the raw materials would still be the same and the price would not go down that much. Competition will not make the price go down because there is none. Good Year dropped out of the short track tire business last year leaving only Hoosier and American Racer as the ONLY two tire companies making asphalt short track tires. If Good Year (one of the largest tire manufacturers in the world) did not see profitability in this market then I would have to believe that tire prices are about as low as they can be already due to the specialization required. Hoosier and American Racer effectively have a monopoly, how is that working out for you at the gas pump with many more oil companies than race tire manufacturers?

4. The more tire that you give people (wider, softer, slick vs. treaded/grooved) the more you make motor matter and the less you make handling (doing your setup homework/ingenuity) matter. To me, what makes this sport great is outhinking your opponent trying something new, not outspending your opponent. NSS tried 10" slicks on OWM's and what you had were small fields with Tank Tucker and Jerry Symmons stinking up the show with their big motors. Now they are great drivers, but does that make a good show? They didn't think so and abandoned that experiment. A good driver and a good crew chief are going to win regardless of what restrictions you put on them because they have a superior setup and make the best of it behind the wheel BUT ONLY if handling matters. An idiot driver with huge pockets with a huge motor and new tires that can handle it, at all costs, will have the ability to stink up the show.

5. Making racing affordable doesn't hurt the show, it only helps the show. Whether you are a Super Late Model team with a NASCAR style double stacker trailer or a Hornet one-man team borrowing your Dad's utility trailer there are a few things all racer's have in common. The most important thing is (for the most part) that we will all run as many races as we can afford to run. I guarantee you as a fan that you would not notice a field 3 tenths to a 1/2 quicker or slower on the stopwatch. But what you would notice is 3 cars racing instead of 26. Although racing is about going as fast as you can it's the COMPETITION that makes stock car racing exciting, not minimal differences in speed. No doubt that you'd rather see a full field racing door to door swapping the lead than 3 cars flat out, a half track apart, a half second faster. Expensive racing=small fields=boring racing.

6. Purses will only increase when car counts, then fan counts increase. The right tire for each division goes a long way to helping this. For the Mod's the 8" semi-hard slick is probably the right answer for the purse they run for and can last 2 nights. Supers have big budgets and a bigger purse and they are gonna buy four tires a night anyway, so the soft 10" slick is right for them. Sportsman (IMHO) need a tire we can get 2 to 3 nights out of and are hard enough to keep the crates and open motors on an even keel. Affordable crates are making the Sportsman class very popular among competitiors to the point that most top teams and race winners are now on the crate. Trucks are all on the same crate motor so tire is least important for them of any division BUT for the money they run for they would be best served to be on the same tire as Sportsman. Streets Stocks, Bombers, etc. are low-buck classes with low-buck purses and need to either be on a street radial OR a ROCK HARD race tire like the Hoosier Commanche that keeps it's speed "until the cords wear through".

The show is built from the back gate. Get the cars to the track and you have big fields. Big fields produce exciting shows. Exciting shows draw the crowds. Big crowds and big fields produce big revenue for track owners. Big crowds will enable racers to lure more sponsorship. More sponsorship will enable racers to compete more often. Big revenue will enable the track owners to increase purses and spend more on advertising and host more big money events. The correct specific tire for each divisions individual needs goes a long way to starting the dominoes falling as described above...

First of all, it's pit injector, not gate.

Some racers are very competitive, others just want to be part of the show. The ones who want to win will buy new tires, cams, headers, gear sets, and chassis/setup assistance whenever they feel the need. Do we need to regulate those things as well ? And if so, how long would each car need in tech every night to make sure the gears and all other regulated parts are the same ones they had last week? You're intent on driving racing down to the lowest common denominator. And not for the sake of racing, but so you won't have to spend as much money.

Treaded tire purchases are controlled nationwide. But as I said, it's pretty easy to get around that rule. Just have another racer buy tires and sell them to you.

The 10 inch slick was universal around the country until tire manufacturers and track/series promotors decided they had a better idea. And a better profit maker. Firestone, Hoosier, Hankook, Pirelli, Bridgestone, and American Racer along with a few others make race tires. Some already make 10 inch slicks, the others certainly could if they saw an opening. There's your competition, competition brings down prices and increases technology.

Wide tires aren't why you're losing races. Driving, chassis setups, engines are why you're getting beat. Tank Tucker and Jerry Symons will win no matter what tires they use. I watched the NASCAR mods from new Hampshire. Huge tires, extremely close racing, lot's of passing. So I guess big soft tires aren't the ruin of good close racing. Street stocks on 10 inch slicks will give you the same type of show.

Your idea of affordable means slower race cars and even more cautions. That has already killed racing. We're trying to bring it back.
Purse increases will only come from increased sponsor participation. More billboards sold, grandstands re-named, etc.

[Boneman]

I am enjoying this well-reasoned discussion, and learning a bit too.

The ones who want to win will buy new tires, cams, headers, gear sets, and chassis/setup assistance whenever they feel the need. Do we need to regulate those things as well ?

Matt, most of these things are regulated, but they don't have the financial impact of tire purchases because these things don't wear out on a weekly basis and have to be replaced every time.

NASCAR mods from new Hampshire. Huge tires, extremely close racing, lot's of passing. Street stocks on 10 inch slicks will give you the same type of show.

I don't think so. Street stocks on expensive tires would have very small fields compared to a televised NASCAR race.

affordable means slower race cars and even more cautions

Sorry, I'm not buying it. Affordable racing means more participation, more competition and as a result higher fan interest. I'm all for having a class like sprints or SLM where you can spend whatever it takes, but the weekly back-bone type divisions have to be protected from themselves and their racers instinct to spend more to go faster.

Carry on.

[Imhere]

Take off's are the way to go. You give the late model guys 10 dollars a tire discount for every usable tire they turn in ( instead of having to pay to get rid of them). You sell each tire to the sportsman guy for $35 dollars mounted. now the track is still making profit. Tires are given to teams by lottery draw. No one knows what tires they will get. Levels playing field makes it possible for anybody to win. Biggest plus is it lowers racers cost.

[Matt Albee]

I guess at this juncture we should probably switch from hypotheticals to actual numbers.
So....
How much do 10 inch slicks currently cost? No approximations, actual numbers.
How long do the HARDEST 10 inch slicks last on an SLM or OWM. Not anecdotal, actual.
How much do the current treaded tires cost? No approximations, actual numbers.
How long do the ordinary HARDEST treaded tires last on an OWM? No anecdotal, real numbers.


As for affordable racing, that would be what, Pure Stock, Street Stock, Sportsman, E-mods, etc. ? I as a race fan, am not going to travel and/or spend more at the front injector to watch a 100 lap Street Stock or E-Mod race. I'm just not.
Neither would the majority of race fans. And by majority of fans, i'm talking about the full grandstands of 10 years ago. Of the 200 or so fans in the stands these days, you might get half of them to go see a 100 lap Pure Stock race, but that's only a hundred or so fans who are obviously willing to put up with boring racing or they would have left long ago with the rest of the spectators.
Nothing against the lower classes, just reality. I've seen the fastest SLMs and OWMs. I'm not going to able to get too excited about spending money to watch much slower classes.

[Matt Albee]

Take off's are the way to go. You give the late model guys 10 dollars a tire discount for every usable tire they turn in ( instead of having to pay to get rid of them). You sell each tire to the sportsman guy for $35 dollars mounted. now the track is still making profit. Tires are given to teams by lottery draw. No one knows what tires they will get. Levels playing field makes it possible for anybody to win. Biggest plus is it lowers racers cost.

Exactly. A win for everybody.

[Matt Albee]

The idea that running 10 inch take off slicks would cause less participation in the lower classes doesn't ring true. The lower classes are already about as affordable as they can get and yet very small car counts. How many E-mods show up to a weekly show?
And of course we still haven't decided how much the take off 10 inch tires would cost. The tracks could step in and regulate the prices as the above poster mentioned. And I doubt a Street stock is going to be able to use up a 10 inch slick very quickly, so they may be good for 4 weeks of racing.
Most of this can't be known until it's actually tried. But treaded racing tires are on their way out, so it might be time to think about what comes next.

[Mike Bresnahan]

Never in the history of racing has the competition gotten closer by making the cars faster. Slicks are going to make the outside faster but it's damn sure gonna make the inside faster too...

[dd38]

Matt, They are "Ribbed" tires as Hoosier calls them(Or as I call them Airplane Tires). Their "Treaded" tire is the "Comanche".

[scottgarrity07]

OK, I'm glad your on board with real world over hypothetical. That's that point of view of my whole previous post. Let's start by getting you to admit the reality of the tire manufacturing situation. THERE ARE ONLY TWO COMPANIES MANUFACTURING ASPHALT SHORT TRACK TIRES. As a result, there will be no competition in this market. Although the other companies that you mention make "race tires" I really don't see why they would be enticed into jumping into our market when Good Year got out. Short Track racing is not booming, the demand is not there. They don't already do it, so don't "assume" they will. It's pure fantasy.

Real numbers: 10" slicks are currently around $155. 8" grooved tires are around $130 a tire. I can't really give you a number about the "hardest" 10" slick because I don't know of anywhere where they run a tire like that. 10" slicks are reserved for the top class at most tracks and as a result are usually a very soft tire (one night). The hardest 10" slicks would spin on the straights under the mighty horsepower of a Super Late Model and would not be feasible. Driver's would revolt. The hardest grooved OWM I've seen was the old Good Year and I heard they lasted 2 to 3 nights. Treaded/Ribbed tire purchases are not controlled here in FL (only FUPS Triple Tour). Not sure where they are doing it "nationwide".

I am a rather low-buck Sportsman guy. My budget is probably about low-average compared to my competitors. I will tell you right now, I WILL NEVER RACE ON USED TIRES UNLESS FORCED TO (and then I would likely do what the previous poster said about 5 laps with a LM team). Tires are the most important thing on a racecar in terms of making it handle. It is not just how much life has been killed off a used tire but the size of that tire. Until you air it up and run it you will not know what you have. Used tires are a mystery game. The more heat cycles (trips out on the track) you put on a tire the less likely that you can get the tire to the size you want it (stagger). Also with every heat cycle, the harder a tire gets and the quicker it will fall off. How well did the car handle that had the tire? How much did the driver abuse that tire? If it's done by lottery, how many mystery sh*t tires do I have to buy before I get the sizes I need that were not abused and are tires that I can use? Too much guesswork for me for the amount of time and money I spend to go racing. Put me on a 10" slick and I will buy new ones and race way less often. That's not going to improve the current state of racing. You are not going to get racers that want to be competitive to buy used tires unless forced to. MOST racers are very competitive, not some. Only very few want to "be part of the show". Those "field fillers" (I hate that term) are not making the show you want to watch as a fan better and most of them are trying their hardest to be competitive. Only money and/or knowledge/experience is holding them back. And in the "real world" track operators are not going to be willing to reduce their new tire sales to 1 or 2 divisions. It's not gonna happen. It's pure fantasy again.

Tour Mods put on a hell of a show at New Hampshire because they draft and can slingshot and use restrictor plates. Street Stocks at the local bullring will never be able to put on that type of show.

It's poor decisions that cause most wrecks, not slower cars.

Tires are very important in the OWM class because there are virtually no motor rules. There are used SB2 NASCAR Cup motors being used by some teams, some teams have other different high HP motors, some teams have the Pro Late Model "604" Crate motor and some teams have humble home built motors. THis class NEEDS to have a tire that levels the playing field SOMEWHAT. Without that you would probably lose many of the competitors and have the same guys winning every week. The switch from the treaded Hoosier to the slick just gives SLIGHTLY more tire to the Mods, but you can see by the reaction on this board what some of the competitors feel it will do.

Purse increases will come from more profitability attained by track owners, yes I did leave out track sponsorship but that is only a fraction of where tracks can make money. Full pits and grandstands are way more important. Besides, no one is going to sponsor a track with an empty grandstand, no matter who you name it for. No injection of cars, no injection of fans, no injection of cash!

[Billy Barham Jr]

The best way if you are going to run 10" tires and make it fair. Mark the tires and you can only use one new tire per week on all local shows and two if it is over 50 lapper. That way you can use take offs or go new and still not have a big advantage. I ran and won almost every week years ago at palm beach. Had a new right front every week and it went on the right rear the next week and so on and so on. And i still dominated the races every week.

[Billy Barham Jr]

Remember One Thing. Never Ever Let A Race Car Driver Make The Rules. If That Happened Every One Would Have Super Modifies, Lol

[Matt Albee]

Well that doesn't really answer a lot of my questions. Around $155 is not very specific, but we'll go with that number. Ribbed tires are around $135 ea. Okay, we'll go with those numbers for argument sake. I'm having trouble believing that the difference in price is going to bankrupt anyone. Now i'm saying that based on the fact that both tires will last the same amount of time. So far, no one has come up with definitive numbers that say they will or won't. Probably have to go back to when the ribbed tires were introduced to see what difference there was in longevity between the two. Would it be preferable if both types of tire were the same price. Yes it would. Is an additional $20 or less per tire going to keep someone from racing? Not likely if both tires last just as long.
With tire rules being the norm for decades, i'd say there's plenty of tracks that run a hard 10 inch slick like that. So i'll bet American and Hoosier both have at least three different compounds for 10 inch slicks.
I know there was a test done with OWMs to see which type of tire worked best sand which tire the drivers preferred . I think it was at NSS or Orlando. What was the verdict?