this is terrifying... about clunkers...

[Todd McCreary]

I have a real choice here , i can accept your version of events and your definitions obtained from a web site , or i can go with my college degree . HMMMMM , difficult choice . I think i'll go with the world wide recognized versions .
Nothing against the net style of education you understand , i just think a web site run by a unemployed ( and unemployable ) guy , probably in his underwear watching tv at the same time , the web site where you are obviously getting your version of the world , is a poor choice for info .

another libel. i got my "opinions" on this from a college textbook. it was a textbook which kept making the naked assertion that "Fascism is Right Wing" but none of the facts it presented ( such as Mussolini's Marxist origins ) ever backed that up. "Fascism" is a Group Rights/Group Control form of government which ignores the existence of individual Rights and Responsibilities just like the Marxist ideologies from which it sprang. and it, just like Marxist philosophies, is explicitly anti-Constitutional.

you might now try to shift gears and "blame my views" on Fascism on Jonah Goldberg ( being slightly more respectable than some schmuck sitting around in his underwear ). only two problems with that, i've never read any books by Goldberg and i got to this conclusion back around '91. well before i ever heard anybody else talking about it.

Patriotism == Fascism is the kind of error a five year old wouldn't make, AJ.

British Parliamentarian Monarchists were "patriotic". Iroquois Nation braves were "patriotic". the Mayans were "patriotic" about their human sacrificing. Egyptians and Romans serving their "God-Emperors/Kings" were "patriotic". Israelis are "patriotic". North Koreans are "patriotic", rabidly so. there's plenty of "patriotism" in modern Russia. most modern volunteers for the US military are "patriotic" ( hey Ed, how does it feel to say "Seig Heil"? you got your salute down yet? ). most every school child who recites the Pledge of Allegiance and most every race fan who puts their hand over their heart for the National Anthem is "patriotic".

and you just, STUPIDLY, called all of these people "Fascists".

asserting that "patriotism" is the defining characteristic of "Fascism" is worse than useless, it falsely indicts the vast majority of the entire human race extending back into prehistory.

but you just keep telling me how dumb and ignorant and paranoid i am. it's the only thing you've got going.



It is the zenith of stupidity to only get your info from people who agree with you .

exactly what opinions do you hold which contradict the professors who programmed you, AJ?

there's more than one person that can play this game.

considering you're going to try to throw a useless college degree out there ( fallacy: appeal to authority, your own ... which you haven't even come close to proving ) you might want to take another shot at defining "Fascism". right now, you're embarrassing college grad-e-ates and professors everywhere.




so you can belittle them

gosh, no. you mean "belittling" like telling me i get all my opinions from talk radio? or unemployed shirtless and pantsless losers? telling everyone i'm begging for an apology when you were the only one who was ever wanting an apology at any point in our debate? saying i'm a brainless party apparatchik?

you let me know when it's okay for me to act like you, cuz right now i'm really confuzled.

either that or i'll just file you with Carol Wicks in the "Do as I Say, Not as I Do" folder. you know the one, that's the folder that gets put in the round file just off the end of the desk.

[AJ14]

No matter what the books say , it doesn't matter because Todd knows the real truth . HMMM , now where have i heard that before ?
Your list of patriots was fascinating , only like your mentors you didn't bother to include the word hyper before the word patriot as i did in my definition . That sort of changes your argument a bit doesn't it ?
If you're comfortyable with your world views then have at it and God Bless .
But heres a suggestion that i really wish you'd take seriously . This is a racing forum . These idiotic debate attempts concerning politics is really a wasted exercise . Darren doesn't have much to do every day except trying to sell religion on a web site . But as you fancy yourself an expert on politics , world history , and apparently Psychiatry 101 , why not start your own web site devoted to having stimulating discussions of politics and world events . I would happily sign in to participate every day , and i'm sure others on this board would also . That would free this board up for all other posts . Just a suggestion .

[AJ14]

And that in no way means i think you shouldn't participate on this board with racing topics . I read pretty much every one of your racing posts , i think you've had a lot of great suggestions and insights into racing . And unlike Rex , i don't think anyones input demeans the forum . I just think the racing can be separated from the world views .

[FLQuacker]

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Just watch it without ANY political bias....you may just learn something.

Oh...and, I think Todd should change his screen name to "The Bus Driver".

Cause, he just took AJ to school.

[AJ14]

The fact that some people only get their information from web sites and talk shows is a well used joke , actually more sad than funny . And of course theres Wikepedia . But now we're supposed to believe that the repository of all political knowlege is a web site with wimp in the title . OMG .

[Todd McCreary]

only like your mentors you didn't bother to include the word hyper before the word patriot as i did in my definition . That sort of changes your argument a bit doesn't it ?

not really. for there are "hyper-patriots" to be found in all of the examples i listed.

it also completely avoids the fact that "fascism" is a form of government, not simply an attitude towards whatever form of government you might happen to have at the moment.

"patriotism" or "hyper-patriotism" is as useless a definition of "Fascism" as "militarism". which is an argument i've had in another time and place from someone who was trying to claim "Starship Troopers" is a Fascist book.

take another swing, AJ.





But now we're supposed to believe that the repository of all political knowlege is a web site with wimp in the title . OMG .

nice ad hom. you might want to try picking up another trick though. this one is getting old.



http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/
Just watch it without ANY political bias....you may just learn something.

there are some useful things in that video but it still suffers from the major weakness of only having a single political axis. any rational political spectrum would have at least two dimensions, possibly more.

the first multi-axes political map i ever saw was Pournelle's but there are many others nowadays.
http://www.baen.com/chapters/axes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

the problem with a multi-axes spectrum is that no one can reach a consensus on exactly what the various axes should consist of or even how many there should be. this presents problems when you want to position an ideology within such a spectrum, even more when you want to discuss it with someone else.

this is as opposed to the colloquial Left-Right spectrum which everyone pretends they understand but which actually will produce almost as many different definitions as people you ask to define it.

[AJ14]

Todd , i gotta hand it to you , you are one of the best i've ever seen at laying out a string of random opinions and pretending they're facts . And then to use blogs as sites for your arguments , wow . Have you always been able to get away with this ?
Well , look , pretending to be the smartest person in the room may have served you well in the past , though let me point out that probably 90% of everyone on this board , and at least the same percentage in real life aren't agreeing with you by their silence , they're just too polite to mess up this little game you have going .
Now that you've confirmed that your font of knowlege is Wikepedia , as i suspected , not to mention FOX , and that you actually believe that Wikepedia is a source of facts rather than its true purpose which is a melding of constantly changing opinions and ideas that can be submitted by ANYONE and are vetted by NO ONE except other bloggers , I've decided to stop making fun of your political views . It wouldn't be fair to continue beating you up . Wait , just one more and then i promise i won't laugh any more . The political axes ( are you sure they meant chopping things down , or was it maybe axis ) argument was priceless . And yes , any real test of that argument would obviously require far more than one axis , and far more than the two you feel are required . But thats pretty much your world i suspect , us vs them . Anyway , i won't make fun of your political world anymore , no matter how far into fantasy land it gets . Your knowlege or lack thereof will be kept a secret by me .

[john tenney]

Todd, the more he talks the dumber he gets.

Give him 20 years and he will look back and be ashamed - prophecy!

[tedrichard]

I, for one, disagree that political, religious or philosophical discussions should be off limits on this board. Why should they be? We always have the freedom of not reading the thread if it doesn't interest us or we risk being offended by reading it. It's not like those discussions limit the number of racing threads to choose from. Lets face it, a lot of us spend most of the time we have to devote for cruising the internet on this board and we wouldn't even get to experience the various views that are expressed on these subjects otherwise. It's too bad that we can't seem to figure out a way to express our thoughts without trying to humiliate, degrade and otherwise beat each other up though. The word "respect" comes to mind. I'm a LONG ways from the brightest bulb on the tree but one thing I have learned in my 55 years is that there ain't a person on the planet that you can't learn SOMETHING of value from.

[carolwicks]

Ted

You are definitely one of the brightest lights on THIS Christmas tree...
what a breath of fresh air! Thanks...
carol aka OZ

[Todd McCreary]

Now that you've confirmed that your font of knowlege is Wikepedia

fallacious argument.

it's not exactly easy to find copies of a 30 year old college text online, especially when i don't have the book to hand or remember the author's name.

finding multiple sources that agree with me does not mean that i gots my larning from those multiple sources. it simply means that i'm capable of research, and that some of the things i say aren't nearly "so far out there" as you'd like everyone to believe.



and at least the same percentage in real life aren't agreeing with you by their silence , they're just too polite to mess up this little game you have going .

so the people that came up to me at the track last night and shook my hand are all part of the 10%?

who were you accusing of pulling facts out of their ass, again?




not to mention FOX

BZZZZT. i don't watch Fox unless NASCAR is running a race or House is on. i very rarely watch any of the big 4 networks.

you keep accusing me of getting my views from x, y and z even after i have more than demonstrated that i don't even agree with them. you could be a Jethro Tull song.




The political axes ( are you sure they meant chopping things down , or was it maybe axis

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/axes
plural of axis 1 . <<< being the very first definition listed for this word

that you don't know how to properly use the English language does not surprise me.

what with "hyperpatriotism" not even being a real word and all ( at least not in an American dictionary, i can't check the OED online ).... perhaps you meant "superpatriotism"?

which is still a weasel word; what is the objective definition of "too much patriotism"? is it like the urban rush hour definition of speeding? anyone who is going 2mph faster than me is a dangerous lunatic and anyone going 2mph slower is a stupid schmuck who's holding up traffic?

if you can provide us with an objective definition for "excessive patriotism", yeah, that would be great, mmmkay?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVkEk-ci8xk





far more than the two you feel are required .

you accuse me of "requiring" exactly two axes when i actually said ....
"any rational political spectrum would have at least two dimensions, possibly more."

i set a minimum bound, not a required number not to be exceeded. but at least you've managed to create an argument which you can win, maybe ( i note that you didn't actually make a logical case for how many axes there should be, nor what they should consist of, you just made another naked assertion ). now, if you could only find someone to make that "exactly two axes" argument against you.....



Your knowlege or lack thereof will be kept a secret by me .

i agree wholeheartedly with this statement. your complete inability to use logic, nonexistent research skills ( have you ever even seen the inside of a library? ), lack of basic knowledge of history and politics and language comprehension certainly are doing an excellent job of concealing whatever points of ignorance i might have.