Racers vs. Drivers

[Boneman]

"Joey Logano is a better driver that Earnhardt ever was." I can back this statement up if you consider the difference between racers and simply drivers, especially at the top end of our sport.

Our sport was built by a few generations of racers.. These guys would get a racecar together in a short time, run it 2 or 3 nights a week, and often make a little money. Mix in some partying and fighting and you can see what life was like for many. After the travel and preparations, the race driving was almost an after-thought.

Now consider the modern driver. He or she is younger, in better physical condition (think full-time team trainer vs. beer belly), rested from no demands of long days and nights in the shop, and they get massive amounts of practice, both on - track and in modern simulators.
Also, they have the benefit of data acquisition that analyses all aspects of performance: shocks, aero, corner speeds, split times, etc.. They have whatever it takes for consisant, fast laps.

Earnhardt, and his competitors from that era, we're tremendous "seat of the pants" drivers. Yes, that is a valuable skill, but it will always be beaten by technology. Don't agree? Then ask why traction control is so effective over a driver on his own.

it is because modern drivers are trained and optimized for the maximum in performance, that I can that Logano is better that Earnhardt. Sure, Logano can't change a spark plug, and Dale could do shop work. I get the difference, but my point is about the driving function only.

Now I troll you. Austin Dillon could outrun Cale. Kyle Bush would be several tenths quicker than D. Waltrip or Petty, and Ricky Stenhouse (maybe Danica too) would lap Harry Gant.

[Renegade Racing Fuels]

This topic should sure get some comments. Here are a few.
Modern NASCAR drivers are possibly in better physical shape, but i don't know that physical conditioning ever limited the old school drivers. Earnhardt once ran almost the entire Bristol race without power steering. And we all know how tough it is to turn the wheel when the power steering fails. There wasn't a lot of high tech cooling for the driver in the old days, those guys fought it out anyway.

A "racer" relies on the seat of the pants feel for the car and the track and adjusts his driving style to changing conditions. A "driver" counts on the crew to get the car right and keep making changes so he can be competitive.

There are drivers now that could, and in some cases did compete with Dale, Harry, and Cale. True seat of the pants racers like Kyle Busch, Tony Stewart, Kevin Harvick and Logano would have no problem going head to head with those men.

The Cales and Dales would do just fine in the high tech cars of today. Question is, how would todays "racers" do in the same cars those guys had to race?

[zerofor]

Hmmmm

One thing is very true.Racers today are much better physically conditioned. Gym work and diet are stressed way more than years past when the physical fitness plan was riding a bicycle through the pit area.But does the physical conditioning nowadays stack up against the toughness of guys from era's past? How would say a Logano,Danica,Busch,Hamlin etc hold up running the old northern swing NASCAR once scheduled? Five sometimes six races a week some dirt,some small blacktop ovals,riding in old non air conditioned kidney bruising haulers on two lane roads that turned a now three hour trip into an all day trip.Oh and the car got torn up last night and needs patched up for tonight. Oh then the hauler broke down and there ain't another one coming to the rescue from Charlotte. Hop in a USAC sprint or midget tonight a stock car on the road course tomorrow and Daytona this weekend. Foyt,Gurney,Unser etc did the non NASCAR thing for years then combined the two throughout the year.Guys like all the big name stars of NASCAR and the little guys like Wendell Scott,Roy Mayne JD McDuffie and on and on followed the old NASCAR northern leg.These guys all had one thing in common.Long grueling hours on old roadways before they ever climbed in the race cars.A lot of the old guys would never handle all the Hans devices,radios,distractions probably in their minds.Most the younger guys now could never handle the grind and the beating those guys took just to get there.

[OldSchool+]

C'mon now, Bones. Only one variable please.

We have to put a 30 year old Cale or Harry in a current car.

Or else Joey in Wendell's #34.

Good equipment is a must. But a great driver will still best a good driver in current equipment.

But anyway...

"Austin Dillon could outrun Cale."--Boneman

I will agree with that. What did he do to piss Cale off, anyway...?

[Boneman]

Don't try to imagine a match race. It can't happen. My point is that modern driver training and conditioning will produce better and more consistent lap times than ever,

Damn, I was hoping for an uproar when I said Logano is faster than Dale...

[OldSchool+]

Aight, another way to answer the question: A good driver is all about God Given car control.

I would suggest that in the old days more at the top had to be great drivers in order to get the ride. Now one needs to bring money, and if you bring enough you have a few seasons to sell donuts or whatnot, unless you run out of money first.

Back to today's drivers: Some win a lot. Some don't. Some in good equipment that don't have "it" win a lot, but imo are still not as "good" as those with innate talent whose stats may not be as stellar.

Re: Logano vs Jr & "fast"... can we have a third choice, please?

[shorttrackcar1]

nobody cares about nascar anymore tex . that's why no uproar .

[egspeedway]

Renegade said it best,racers lettheseat of their car tell them what to do, not aroof full of spotters and a crew chief crunching a computer.Sadly the fans are the victim of the ludicrous amount of money thrown at the owners making them pay the piper for all the technical advances solely for straightaway speed and rpms in the turns.Todays driver is as programmed as the car and crew chiefs computer.They are treated as royalty but must return their fortunes in the form of prim donna stars for the sponsor. King Richard did what he did for the love of the fan and his appreciation for their love of the sport.Yes I would have thought the use of Logonnos name would have caused more discussion.He is the only driver I pull against week in and week out.Was he a highly tanented grass roots driver,no.quite the opposite his waay was/is being paid for by deep pockets.He has been in more "incidents" than anyone I can remember.I must face the fact my sport is on life support and I fear the millennials have zero patience for long distance green flag runs and are rarelythere at the finish,When I saw the limited views of the stands removed any doubt as to our future.

[OldSchool+]

Somehow every NASCAR thread turns into a "here-is-why-I-don't-like-Brian-and/or-NASCAR-and-why-it-is-failing" thread.

So be it...

I heard again today, from the rotund conservative talk show host no less, that today's generation "is not into cars".

Again, so be it.

I am not into chess or golf. I am unsure what they are doing at their "championships". If it is free to get in or they are giving away hot dogs I am still not interested.

NASCAR is hosting an event most every weekend. Their numbers and profit is not my concern, only the show. And the show has been pretty fair as of late (Indy, for example).

They also have gone back to the old G/W/C deal, now with unlimited restarts. Additionally the increasing use of traction compounds indicates that they are at least becoming aware of the inherent lousy racing that their one-groove tracks tend to produce. Additional steps in the right direction, imo.

What is the worst that can happen? They return to Southern based short tracks with less money and less tech? Maybe carbs & bias tires?

I can deal with that.

[luke81]

It's all about the evolution of the technology, and who adapts to it the best. The newest generation will always be at an advantage there. Petty and Waltrip spent the last 1/4 of their careers tooling around for 20th place if they were lucky, when they were dominant in their prime. In the last few years the performance of great drivers like Stewart, Kahne, Earnhardy jr, heck even Jeff Gordon all went downhill. I don't know that they lost their actual talent, but their talent didn't translate into the new technology and I'm not sure their talent translated with their crew chiefs as well either. I think that the biggest problem that some of the older-school guys hit is they don't feed the right information to the crew chiefs or they don't know what info to feed when to fix problems. Or....do they even know what problems to fix? In 1995 I'm confident that if Earnhardt called in to Andy Petree and said "I need a spring rubber in the right front" he knew exactly why he needed it and what it was going to do. Now you do that and you're getting 1/32 inch more gap to the track and the air is getting under the car and the 7 post rig numbers are thrown off by 2.987834% and the car goes straight to crap.

[Boneman]

Yeah, what he said!

[OldSchool+]

Causative action: I hit my thumb with a hammer and it hurts (happens more than you would think...).

Correlation: Two things happen and you assume they are causative, but in fact they may not be. For instance, how many women who have borne a child had a soda in the nine months previous? Did it "make" them preggers?

"It's all about the evolution of the technology, and who adapts to it the best. The newest generation will always be at an advantage there. Petty and Waltrip spent the last 1/4 of their careers tooling around for 20th place if they were lucky, when they were dominant in their prime. In the last few years the performance of great drivers like Stewart, Kahne, Earnhardy jr, heck even Jeff Gordon all went downhill. I don't know that they lost their actual talent, but their talent didn't translate into the new technology..."--Luke

But...they all also got older. Junior Johnson once said that a driver--any driver--was fastest in his early 30s.

Other guys--Curtis Turner and, say, Bobby Johns also got slower as they aged in similar era (low) tech rides.

And Gordo came and went in similar era (high) tech equipment.

Again, it is a theoretical discussion, and the only way to have it (that is, guess at it) is to have only one variable--a driver in his prime vs another in his prime--in similar equipment.

(ps--Yarborough and Pearson were/are still the toughest and fastest!)