New Sportsman Rules for 2017...

[Patrick Thomas 25]

First off, I'm glad to see tracks coming together and getting the rules for the sportsman class the same,to keep us from having to rebuild the car from 1 set of track rules too the next. It was also said by Ricky that the wheelman series would follow these same rules.

But, there are a lot of new rules that will cost a lot of racers a bunch of money.
Some of the rule changes, like the body rules were warned in last years rule book they were coming. And they actually opened up the overhang rules from what had been posted to make more of the existing cars legal. I am a big fan of the quarter panel height rule, just last Saturday, I ran into the back of Bruce Bennetts car before the race started because I couldn't see that Jason Vail had slowed in front of him. The quarter panel heights have gotten out of hand, I couldn't care less if there was an overhang rule front or rear, or even a roof height or overall roof dimension, as that stuff matters very little in my opinion.

The minimum weight rule getting lower to 2950 as the base weight is gonna be tough for guys with older cars, or fat drivers like I am.

The new 50 pound weight break for crate motors is if the motor is completely sealed, okay that means the stock oil pan too, but the rules have allowed for a cheap 7" deep pan, instead of the factory sealed 8 1/4" deep pan installed from GM. So if you want the crate motor weight break you have to put the factory stock pan back on, and Ricky would have to reseal the pan. But by putting this pan on you also have to raise the motor back up 1 1/4". When we used to be mandated to run the stock pan, the crank height on my motor had to be 13 1/2" to keep the oil pan off the race track. The built motor cars have no oil pan rule, and there is no crank height rule in this rulebook, so they are going to be able to get there motors down to 11 1/2" or so and still not bottom out the oil pan on the track. Ricky has been made aware of this and there may be a change coming soon.

The other big issue is, the crate motor is now mandated a 6200 rev limiter chip,
And the built motor is to have a 6800 rev limiter chip. This season in the DASS series the built motor cars had a 6500 chip and dominated the DASS series except for 2 races that all the good built motor cars either wrecked or didn't show up to race. Why give the built motor cars more RPM and a crank height advantage for this next if you are looking at going to crate only in 2018. Why not penalize the built motor guys now to make them want to buy the way more affordable crate motor. I know there are guys that say they can build a built motor that will last for the same as a crate and carb. Great that's awesome, I don't believe you. Ricky has also been made aware of this.

The clutch rule is also new, it is a more affordable option if you had no clutch and were building a new car, the problem is most people already have the top of the line big 10 1/2" clutch, so you now have to put it on a shelve and order a new clutch. My opinion the there should be a 1 year 50 pound penalty for the
7 1/4" clutch' with the understanding that in 2018 the 7 1/4" clutch will be legal with no penalty.

The other change that isn't on this rules sheet is the fact that the new 12 race series will be on a 9" American racer slick, which will only hook up the more powerful built motors even more. Once again another nail in the affordable crate motor option that has for years been the expensive built motor alternative

There is a big rear suspension change that I think is a good thing to keep costs down, even though it affects my cars, and all the cars I have built or rebuilt. The biscuits or springs in the trailing arms that allow the rearends to move around are now illegal, and the newer style center pull attachment points that I use are now illegal.

The shock claim rule is lower this year, the spec sealed shock for next year may be a good thing to help keep costs down also, but remember by having a spec shock next year, you are still requiring people to buy new shocks.

So there are big changes for the most successful class in Florida, some I think are very good for the class, while others I feel have gone the wrong way.


Patrick Thomas 111

[Phil Jacques]

First off, I'm glad to see tracks coming together and getting the rules for the sportsman class the same,to keep us from having to rebuild the car from 1 set of track rules too the next. It was also said by Ricky that the wheelman series would follow these same rules.

But, there are a lot of new rules that will cost a lot of racers a bunch of money.
Some of the rule changes, like the body rules were warned in last years rule book they were coming. And they actually opened up the overhang rules from what had been posted to make more of the existing cars legal. I am a big fan of the quarter panel height rule, just last Saturday, I ran into the back of Bruce Bennetts car before the race started because I couldn't see that Jason Vail had slowed in front of him. The quarter panel heights have gotten out of hand, I couldn't care less if there was an overhang rule front or rear, or even a roof height or overall roof dimension, as that stuff matters very little in my opinion.

The minimum weight rule getting lower to 2950 as the base weight is gonna be tough for guys with older cars, or fat drivers like I am.

The new 50 pound weight break for crate motors is if the motor is completely sealed, okay that means the stock oil pan too, but the rules have allowed for a cheap 7" deep pan, instead of the factory sealed 8 1/4" deep pan installed from GM. So if you want the crate motor weight break you have to put the factory stock pan back on, and Ricky would have to reseal the pan. But by putting this pan on you also have to raise the motor back up 1 1/4". When we used to be mandated to run the stock pan, the crank height on my motor had to be 13 1/2" to keep the oil pan off the race track. The built motor cars have no oil pan rule, and there is no crank height rule in this rulebook, so they are going to be able to get there motors down to 11 1/2" or so and still not bottom out the oil pan on the track. Ricky has been made aware of this and there may be a change coming soon.

The other big issue is, the crate motor is now mandated a 6200 rev limiter chip,
And the built motor is to have a 6800 rev limiter chip. This season in the DASS series the built motor cars had a 6500 chip and dominated the DASS series except for 2 races that all the good built motor cars either wrecked or didn't show up to race. Why give the built motor cars more RPM and a crank height advantage for this next if you are looking at going to crate only in 2018. Why not penalize the built motor guys now to make them want to buy the way more affordable crate motor. I know there are guys that say they can build a built motor that will last for the same as a crate and carb. Great that's awesome, I don't believe you. Ricky has also been made aware of this.

The clutch rule is also new, it is a more affordable option if you had no clutch and were building a new car, the problem is most people already have the top of the line big 10 1/2" clutch, so you now have to put it on a shelve and order a new clutch. My opinion the there should be a 1 year 50 pound penalty for the
7 1/4" clutch' with the understanding that in 2018 the 7 1/4" clutch will be legal with no penalty.

The other change that isn't on this rules sheet is the fact that the new 12 race series will be on a 9" American racer slick, which will only hook up the more powerful built motors even more. Once again another nail in the affordable crate motor option that has for years been the expensive built motor alternative

There is a big rear suspension change that I think is a good thing to keep costs down, even though it affects my cars, and all the cars I have built or rebuilt. The biscuits or springs in the trailing arms that allow the rearends to move around are now illegal, and the newer style center pull attachment points that I use are now illegal.

The shock claim rule is lower this year, the spec sealed shock for next year may be a good thing to help keep costs down also, but remember by having a spec shock next year, you are still requiring people to buy new shocks.

So there are big changes for the most successful class in Florida, some I think are very good for the class, while others I feel have gone the wrong way.


Patrick Thomas 111

Much more educated/indepth post than mine since you obviously have more experience/knowledge with these cars. 100% on point. The basis of these changes are great, but costing guys big money to make these changes is only going to hurt everyone, especially the little budget guys.

[scottgarrity07]

There is so much wrong with this situation, where to begin?

Personally my car (which was recently rebuilt due to severe crash damage) will need a lot of work and money to conform to these rules. Body, rear suspension, clutch upgrade, rims, etc. After spending a ton to fix the crash damage and upgrading all the safety equipment on my car, I am now faced with having to spend thousands more to comply to these rules.

I have both a financial and philosophical problem doing this. These rules were presented as a "rules alignment" attempt for the class throughout the state. If that were indeed true there would be no problems. However, these rules are not a "rules alignment" but more like rules for an entirely new class. Look at everything highlighted in yellow in these rules. These are all the rule changes. Nearly 50% (maybe more) of this document are rules changes! True "rules alignment" should have started by taking all the common rules from every tracks Sportsman rules and then find a low-cost common ground approach to reconciling all the other conflicting rules with the goal of creating the least pain for the racer to achieve this. These rules could not be farther from that approach. Why anyone would think this is a good idea for a class that is on a severe rebound in popularity, as exemplified in its resurgent car count, is beyond me. People wouldn't be building these cars or pulling them out of mothballs if everyone thought that the rules were unfair and in need of a complete overhaul. In fact, the on-track competition has been nothing short of thrilling most races. We are trying to fix what is not broken.

As misguided as these rules are, what's even more disturbing is what is not in these rules, and other developments that are going on. Truth be told, with a gun to my head, eventually I would likely pony up the hefty sum and make my car comply to these rules. I love to race and I want to race. However, there are other elements at play. We are being told that these rules will be adopted by every track. Auburndale, Desoto, Punta Gorda (4-17 Speedway) and New Smyrna have already indeed put their name on them. We are told The Wheelman Series will adopt them. We are told that The Wheelman tracks (Showtime and Citrus County) will adopt them as their weekly rules. I also have been told by a reliable source that Bronson is aligning with New Smyrna and it would stand to reason that they will adopt the rules as well. So it appears there will be no "safe haven" for guys who refuse to or cannot afford to make these changes. Therefore these rules really hurt the low buck guy who just wants to run at his home track (or anywhere where his car is still deemed legal "as-is". While these rules have been sold as a way for the "traveling racer" to "not have to make drastic changes to his car" to go from track to track, the guy who only races his home track on a shoestring budget has been left behind. Has Sportsman evolved into such a "Pro" class that this is necessary?

The other "dirty little secret" that is not being presented is that the combination of these rules, along with other developments going on, will make the Crate motor OBSOLETE from a competitive standpoint. Yes, the same GM 602 Crate motor that, in my opinion, is the sole reason for the explosion in the car counts in the Sportsman class in the past few years. These new rules as they stand now allow the Open or Built motor to sit a full 2 inches lower in the chassis. As you would imagine, center of gravity is critical in terms of handling and the entire weight of the drivetrain raised 2 inches is a HUGE disadvantage. Another disadvantage for the Crates is the use of the lightweight multi-disc clutch that will be allowed for all motors. How is this a disadvantage for the Crates if they are allowed this clutch too you might ask? The new clutch is lighter than the old conventional one by 10-12 pounds. This weight is known as reciprocating weight because it spins off the driveline. The less reciprocating weight, the greater the ability to accelerate quicker. The more horsepower and torque that is available to begin with, the more this is an advantage. The Open or Built motors already have the advantage of running taller gears which help tremendously off the line and off of the corner. This clutch will magnify that. But the biggest disadvantage to the Crate (and what will make it competitively obsolete) is the implementation of the American Racer slick tire at Auburndale, Desoto, Punta Gorda and likely Bronson (who are testing these tires Wednesday). (And with Hoosier being recently acquired by Continental Tire will they still continue to make tires for the less profitable weekly short track support classes?). This slick tire will enable the Open motors to get all of their horsepower advantage to the ground instead of having to peddle the throttle, as they do now, because of the less grip of the treaded tire. Built motors will rule the day with the new rules and slick tires and the crates will be relegated to field filler status.

Like I said. I'm a racer and I want to race so I would have likely made the rule changes to my car if I thought ultimately I could be competitive. Unfortunately, I have a Crate motor and these rules and the circumstances surrounding them make my the motor no longer competitive in this environment. I have decided that making these rule changes to my car and acquiring a Built or Open Motor and different carburetor are out of my budget by a long shot and that I have been priced out of this division, if I expect to run competitively. I have grown weary of trying to help keep this division affordable and competitive with my "crusades" here on karnac. I'm too old for this shit anymore. I've said my peace and it's time to move on to other things. Save your questions for me. I won't reply. I will say it really has been a lot of fun and I have met a ton of great people racing Sportsman. Im sure I'll see you all somewhere down the road. And hell, if I like you enough I'll even buy the SUDS! Peace out.

[shorttrackcar1]

So A question who's involved with the rules getting changed who got to sit down and make these decisions .I believe if this was going to be done they should've contacted all the sportsman car owners and drivers and should Have had a big meeting at a track to discuss and vote on what everybody wanted like crate motors only etc . Should have went over every rule step-by-step and voted yay or nay on it. and that's how the rulebook should've been done in every class . and be done with it . the owners of these cars and drivers are the people spending their hard-earned money on this class to race it . I think if you have a set of rules that the majority of owners agrees on it will work .

[Phil Jacques]

So A question who's involved with the rules getting changed who got to sit down and make these decisions .I believe if this was going to be done they should've contacted all the sportsman car owners and drivers and should Have had a big meeting at a track to discuss and vote on what everybody wanted like crate motors only etc . Should have went over every rule step-by-step and voted yay or nay on it. and that's how the rulebook should've been done in every class . and be done with it . the owners of these cars and drivers are the people spending their hard-earned money on this class to race it . I think if you have a set of rules that the majority of owners agrees on it will work .

But... That's how they do it up north. Why would they do it down there? It would never work in Florida.

[CCuzzone9788]

which rules in this rule book do you guys really think makes crate obsolete? I believe the 6800 rpm chip rule will be changed eventually (it clearly states it will be changed if deemed needed), but even if not, lets remember that 2 years ago there was no rule regarding RPMs and Patrick Thomas, Brandon morris, aaron Williamson, myself, Jason Rendell,Collin Allman, Daniel Webster etc etc etc all won with crate motors. Lets also remember that depending on rules claimed in the wheelman series, you don't have to have a rev limiter. and we've seen crate motors (407 and 111) set the top 2 qualifying spots at the most traction having race track in the state (citrus). And Jason Rendell won the first "prelude" the the wheelman series at showtime with a crate motor. DASS series points are won by crate motor this year (Beckner). Wheelman series points 4 out of the top 5 are crates. Crates won the NASCAR championship at NSS this year and last.

[Phil Jacques]

which rules in this rule book do you guys really think makes crate obsolete? I believe the 6800 rpm chip rule will be changed eventually (it clearly states it will be changed if deemed needed), but even if not, lets remember that 2 years ago there was no rule regarding RPMs and Patrick Thomas, Brandon morris, aaron Williamson, myself, Jason Rendell,Collin Allman, Daniel Webster etc etc etc all won with crate motors. Lets also remember that depending on rules claimed in the wheelman series, you don't have to have a rev limiter. and we've seen crate motors (407 and 111) set the top 2 qualifying spots at the most traction having race track in the state (citrus). And Jason Rendell won the first "prelude" the the wheelman series at showtime with a crate motor. DASS series points are won by crate motor this year (Beckner). Wheelman series points 4 out of the top 5 are crates. Crates won the NASCAR championship at NSS this year and last.

Your question has been answered already by Patrick...

- 9" tire will benefit Open/Built and allow them to get the power down more efficently
- Built motors will be able to obtain a lower COG and allow for better handling vs crate
- With VORTEC heads now being allowed on built motors (to my understanding) these engines are making more power now than they were in 2015 and most of 2016. A lower chip limits them more than the higher chip

It's really not about what HAS happened, it's more about what is GOING to happen. With these new changes, the built motor WILL be at more of an advantage. This is more a rulebook for a Pro Sportsman Division than the good division it once was.

[CCuzzone9788]

#1- the result have been the same on every tire we've been on. Hoosier 450/650 hoosier r750, American Racer we are on now. Same guys win, with or without crate.

#2- built motors have had the COG advantage for years. I believe this is the first year (maybe 2nd) that crates were actually legally able to put a short pan on. Jason Rendell still has a 8inch pan on his. still on constant top 3 car every where he goes.

#3- Vortec heads have been legal for a few years now, most of those years without a RPM rule or crate motors having a weight break. Crates still won a fair amount of races.

Don't get me wrong, im a crate motor guy, ive ran them for years and I know that built motors have an advantage. I also trust in Ricky Brooks system, and do not believe for 1 minute that he will late the more expensive option run the small guys out. Give the rule book a chance. Give him a race or 2 to put a lower limit on built motors if need be. But again, its not like the 6500 rule has always been in place. Its only been in place for DASS races. Crates have won plenty of races elsewhere this year.

[shorttrackcar1]

Would it not be easier since were changing all these rules just to eliminate the built motor . I bet if you took a vote most of the sportsman drivers and owners would vote out the built motor .

[B-dub]

Give it a chance??? Why then so when they change it again it cost us more money? Trial and error at the cost of the racer, just like racetracks living off the backgate and tires. SMDH

[Patrick Thomas 25]

Come on Craig. Let's look at what else has changed for the built motors this past year. The cam rule used to be a 450 lift hydraulic cam, now it's a 525 solid cam. The intakes used to have to be an edelbrock performer, now we all know that you are allowed more intake than that, yet we take away the 7" pan on our crate motors to give the poor built motor guys a better chance to beat our 373 horsepower crate motors.

I would love to do a motor swap with 1 of the top DASS built motor cars for a weekend, you know so they can see how much of an advantage the crate motor is.

I bet they won't offer.

Patrick Thomas 111

[CCuzzone9788]

Well, I'll be at as many races as I can. and ill enjoy leaving 1 track and going to another and not having to add 25lbs for a different ball joint, or 50lbs for a different flywheel etc. I truly believe the rules will all work themselves out. Ricky wont let 1 dominate another. And again, although I do think built motors have a little advantage right now.... it isn't big enough to make crates obsolete or uncompetitive.

Patrick, you will find a way to win regardless of the rule package. Legally or not

As for the making money on the back gate comment. That really makes no sense on this post. The back gate makes no money on which motor package a racer uses. Seal your motors, get you 50-100lbs weight break for it and go racing. If by some crazy chance no crate motors can keep up and/or win, im certain they will re-evaluate the rules.

[OldSchool+]

"Don't get me wrong, I'm a crate motor guy, I've ran them for years and I know that built motors have an advantage."--Cuzz

Seems like that would be the factual heart of the matter...

[zootv]

Tax loop holes. WOW I didn't realize it got that lively on here. Good stuff.by the way Patrick did he just call you Donald trump???????

[Ricky Brooks]

I find it very comical how someone that doesn't race here and one that races every blue moon throws stones at the ones trying to make racing better. We as a group will stand tall and keep digging. Thanks to all.