Hey Racetracks

[exnyer]

If you get the bumpstops just right, yes, they are fast. But by the same token if you are a little off on the bumpstops you are going to be way off.

Bumps do not belong in local racing classes, all of the time you have to invest working with them and all of the testing that is needed, they are not worth the money.

The bumps will work in the beginning of a 100 lap race, but after 30 or 40 laps of hard racing you have just about beat the tires off of the car, now you have to struggle with the car for the rest of the race.

[OldSchool+]

Ex,

Please explain.

Seems like a spring is a spring, regardless of whether it is rubber, steel, hydraulic, air, whatever. The effective rate is the effective rate.

Now, I (think that I) know that the bump works because instead of leaning on the right front the car balances on the right rear, and the bump stop is something for the RF to land on rather than a spring in coil bind...

All that said, seems like side bite is side bite, albeit a little better with the bump stop perhaps.

Soooooooooooooooo, where does the increased tire wear come from?

[Phil Jacques]

A bumpstop effectively eliminates the springs in the car on full compression when you are actually ON the bump itself. The bumpstop is not as giving as a spring, thus you actually put extra load on the tires by asking them to be the spring for the entire front car as well. That extra load creates more heat and more wear. Very simple, and I agree 1000% that Bumpstops have NO place in weekly racing or even regional touring divisions.

[OldSchool+]

Ah, I think I see now (said the blind man as he ran though the night).

The car does eventually lean on the right front, it just virtually instantly moves from the RR to the RF, and it is a hard "spring" when it gets there.

Still, you would think that would simply lead to a push, not extra loading of the tire.

But then, you are The Man, so I defer to your expertise.

Also sounds like a freaking handful to drive, particularly in the event of an, *ahem*, altercation when the car is loading and unloading rapidly.

[Phil Jacques]

Ah, I think I see now (said the blind man as he ran though the night).

The car does eventually lean on the right front, it just virtually instantly moves from the RR to the RF, and it is a hard "spring" when it gets there.

Still, you would think that would simply lead to a push, not extra loading of the tire.

But then, you are The Man, so I defer to your expertise.

Also sounds like a freaking handful to drive, particularly in the event of an, *ahem*, altercation when the car is loading and unloading rapidly.

I am far from "The Man"... That was Dale Earnhardt, but I digress.. I have no experience in the seat of a car with bump stops, however prior to ACT outlawing them, we tried them on the Late Model at Waterford. The car would change like a lightswitch. We got it to where the front would sit down on the front evenly on entry through experimentation with different and multiple stops on the shock shaft. We, at the time ran a 125LF and 150RF spring to help the set down quicker and more evenly on compression. We tried multiple things in the rear also and eventually ended up with a 450RR and 200LR with a biscuit in the 3rd link and RR trailing arm to try and enhance grip. The car was super fast for the first 20 laps of a race but typically, like a lightswitch, it would just go away and start to slide the nose in and snap sideways on throttle and exit. As was mentioned, it's a very tricky setup and when it's on, it's on. We finished 2nd twice and 3rd once in the 10 race stretch we were trying it. Then they outlawed it by making a rule (a quite effective one at that) which basically said they roll your car up onto 2x6 planks on the front tires, and 1 person should be able to kneel on either corner of the front bumper lip, and compress the front end so that it touched the ground while on said blocks. This ruled out any chance of using bump stops. Now we are back to a more conventional BBSS setup with a huge 1-3/4" solid moly bar. You can still push the front end down and hit on those planks, but it's much harder and only momentary rather than being able to just sit it right down. It was a great rule because it did inevitably cost a lot of time and money changing springs shocks bars bumps etc to get the car even close.

[OldSchool+]

Yes, he was The Ironheaded Man...

Don't believe bumpstops were part of his day, but then, I cannot remember jacque.

BTW, is Jacques pronounced-- "Jacks" or "Shocks"?

[exnyer]

Phil is pretty much on spot with the explination of the bumps.

With the bumps, you run a soft spring, the coil spring just holds the car up while sitting it does nothing on the track, then when you enter the corner, the spring is irrevelant, the shock sits on the bumps and the tires becomes the spring, (increasing tire temps and wear).

Now it does not matter if you run rubber bump stops or flat washers the load gets transfered to the tire, there is a fine line with your load numbers also, shock travel and how far on the bump stop, then if you are traveling to much on the bump stop you have to either put in packers to pick the nose up because you are bottoming out on the track and hitting the crossmember, the footbox or the rack or the car is not turning and you have to take packers out.

There is so much involved in setting up the bumpstops, testing them, getting the wheel load numbers and all of the tinkering at the track the regular saturday night team cannot keep up with it or simply afford everything that is needed to just get bumps on the car, you really need a full time crew to work with it all.

Another expense is the ABC bodies and the templates. Why do we have to fit templates? I can understand making the cars look nice, but if your nose is 1" wide or short, you get a hard time over it, if your roof is 1" high or low you fail tech. How much of an aero advantage are we getting at New Smyrna, Showtime or Auburndale when they decide to drag out the referee and tech the whole body? To me it is simply a waste of time and when some teams hear that the track is doing tech on bodies they just leave the cars on jackstands.

[jacko241]

Phil is pretty much on spot with the explination of the bumps.

With the bumps, you run a soft spring, the coil spring just holds the car up while sitting it does nothing on the track, then when you enter the corner, the spring is irrevelant, the shock sits on the bumps and the tires becomes the spring, (increasing tire temps and wear).

Now it does not matter if you run rubber bump stops or flat washers the load gets transfered to the tire, there is a fine line with your load numbers also, shock travel and how far on the bump stop, then if you are traveling to much on the bump stop you have to either put in packers to pick the nose up because you are bottoming out on the track and hitting the crossmember, the footbox or the rack or the car is not turning and you have to take packers out.

There is so much involved in setting up the bumpstops, testing them, getting the wheel load numbers and all of the tinkering at the track the regular saturday night team cannot keep up with it or simply afford everything that is needed to just get bumps on the car, you really need a full time crew to work with it all.

Another expense is the ABC bodies and the templates. Why do we have to fit templates? I can understand making the cars look nice, but if your nose is 1" wide or short, you get a hard time over it, if your roof is 1" high or low you fail tech. How much of an aero advantage are we getting at New Smyrna, Showtime or Auburndale when they decide to drag out the referee and tech the whole body? To me it is simply a waste of time and when some teams hear that the track is doing tech on bodies they just leave the cars on jackstands.

Exnyer, you took the words out of my mouth. I have a good friend here in St. Augustine who has run their own Xfinity team, and he offered to help me set up my SLM with bump stops. He explained to me that when they are right, it is real quick, but when they are wrong, they are wrong. When he explained the testing and expense that would be involved, I said no thanks. I don't understand why any local track or small series would ever consider allowing it. Same goes for the ABC body rules. I don't care what anyone says, aero isn't that big a deal on a half mile or shorter. Give some general dimensions for the body, and let's race. The ABC rule was one of the biggest reasons I sold my super.

[Benny The Mule]

and your point is?????

Where have tracks jumped on board for "high dollar parts"?

How many Daddy's are there at each venue? What would YOU do with them?

Racing has ALWAYS been the haves and have nots.

Last comment on this as it is merely becoming an argument where our thought and opinions differ.

3 tracks-2 states (no i will not name them) giving you that is probably too much and just enough to make you change your argument to I have no merit because i won't tell you.

Daddy(s) renting the track every Wednesday, buying 15 sets of tires and 150 gallons of fuel to test their new (high dollar parts) so jr can play (learn). then when they like the new parts they get them written into the rules. tracks HAVE jumped on board with daddy money.

What would i do with the rich daddies? Make them leash Jr a little better and stop influencing the rules.

[exnyer]

Exnyer, you took the words out of my mouth. I have a good friend here in St. Augustine who has run their own Xfinity team, and he offered to help me set up my SLM with bump stops. He explained to me that when they are right, it is real quick, but when they are wrong, they are wrong. When he explained the testing and expense that would be involved, I said no thanks. I don't understand why any local track or small series would ever consider allowing it. Same goes for the ABC body rules. I don't care what anyone says, aero isn't that big a deal on a half mile or shorter. Give some general dimensions for the body, and let's race. The ABC rule was one of the biggest reasons I sold my super.

I fully agree, racing is supposed to be fun and a hobby, it has turned into a mortgage payment. There should be simple rules, a motor rule, body rule, weight and left side, then lets go!

Also with the mandatory tire and fuel purchase, all that does is keep teams home, if teams want to soak, let them... just have a durometer rule and tell them, you can soak your tires until they are mush but they better meet this number when I check them. Some guys can get 2 nights out of a set of tires by soaking them and save money which allows them to race more and build up the car counts.

Benny, as far as kids using daddy's money that has and always will be a problem, unfortunally I do not see this changing in the near future, as the old saying goes, money talks! There have been some kids out there running cars at daddy's expense junking everyone else's cars and daddy will just keep paying to fix the cars and go back to repeat the cycle meanwhile the kid could not drive a hot nail thru a snowman's ass.

Until the track owners lose the attitude of we have to be like nascar things will not change.

[turnleft]

????

Racing is a fun hobby, but the bottom line is, the people who are running up front and win, will be the same people, no matter what the rules are. They are typicaly the ones who work the hardest, and have the determination to be winners.

Lets just give 1st place trophy's to all the participants, so nobody's feeling get hurt.

"The cream will always rise to the Top"

Another idea would be to just add weight to the teams that have tons of money to make things more equal. LMAO

There is not one class of racing, from pure stocks to late models, where one guy works his ass off to win, with or without tons of financial backing.

just my two cents, Vince

[OldSchool+]

"There is not one class of racing, from pure stocks to late models, where one guy works his ass off to win, with or without tons of financial backing."--TL

Excepting at least Sportsman that I know of.

[Phil Jacques]

Racing is a fun hobby, but the bottom line is, the people who are running up front and win, will be the same people, no matter what the rules are. They are typicaly the ones who work the hardest, and have the determination to be winners.

Lets just give 1st place trophy's to all the participants, so nobody's feeling get hurt.

"The cream will always rise to the Top"

Another idea would be to just add weight to the teams that have tons of money to make things more equal. LMAO

There is not one class of racing, from pure stocks to late models, where one guy works his ass off to win, with or without tons of financial backing.

just my two cents, Vince

Vince, I disagree very much with your first statement. I know guys who have been priced out of competition by escalating costs who have been some of the top drivers for 15-20 years. They have great cars and great setups but just can not afford the big money motors or tricked out transmissions and rears with lightweight parts that have become commonplace in some of these divisions and when you are in a division like mine which is where these friends are, there isn't a division to really move down to. Even the "starter" divisions have gotten ridiculous. In most cases, people are able to keep progressing, but new prospects get scared away by the cost. Think of it from an outside perspective. You want to get into a mini stock which is a pure beginners division in most places. In many cases now, you are looking at $12000 for a new, competitive car. Sure, you can buy a used car for $5000-7000 and then have to spend a bunch of money fixing worn out broken and out of date parts or fixing a previously undisclosed bent chassis (I laugh when I see people list a car as "Never been wrecked") which is truly the reason most guys sell old cars anyway. When the sport progresses faster than it's main core of teams can, it makes the racing stale and that's when your competition level "drops" and you get the same couple guys winning every week. No it's not a matter of giving everyone a trophy, but budget should not dictate who wins. The team who works the hardest, learns the most and figures it out the fastest SHOULD be the one to win. Not the guy that can afford a $15,000 engine in a street stock that has 40 more hp than everyone.

[OldSchool+]

"You guys are killing the sport.... There's four tracks...Auburndale, Citrus, Desoto and Showtime... don't schedule on top of each other..."--OSF

Ah yes, the original premise of this thread (remember?).

Heavy sigh, it appears that there is a 50 lap Sportsman race at Auburndale and a 25 lap Sportsman event at Citrus--this weekend!

What's a Muther to do?

[Old Sunshine Fan]

Yea OS,,,,I was about to say: Talk about hi-jacking a thread.... But I'm glad to see all the comments.... These tracks won't get their acts together... their brains won't allow it...OSF