Handicapping????

[scottgarrity07]

Seems like they're scared of this Old School! I ran in a handicapping system for years, it works real well. There's really nothing to fear. There may be a few "growing pains" when it's first implemented but that should be easy to work out.

[OldSchool+]

Aw, I dunno, "scared" and "racers" are kind of incongruous... (Phil, that means they don't go together good).

At the end of the day it seems like it is the promoter's call. Seems like it depends on which gate the Promoter is trying to, um, promote.

[Phil Jacques]

Seems like their scared of this Old School! I ran in a handicapping system for years, it works real well. There's really nothing to fear. There may be a few "growing pains" when it's first implemented but that should be easy to work out.

If the drivers are as respectful and clean as you claim, there should be no issue lol!!!

Truthfully, even in our roughest division (Limited Sportsman) you might get a few donuts on the doors from the faster guys forcing the issue a bit here, but 99 times out of 100 guys are pretty good about getting through the field. Those fast guys that run up front generally understand that when they get stuck back in traffic due to a handicap, you have to be intelligent and methodical about how you get back to the front.

Bottom line is, it will create a better show, give some of the lower buck or slightly slower cars a chance to run up front and occasionally contend for a win. When the show gets better, the crowds get larger.

[Phil Jacques]

Aw, I dunno, "scared" and "racers" are kind of incongruous... (Phil, that means they don't go together good).

At the end of the day it seems like it is the promoter's call. Seems like it depends on which gate the Promoter is trying to, um, promote.

A handicap promotes BOTH gates It gives more guys towards the middle and rear who are still fast but not fast enough to catch someone who runs away with a race from the pole, a chance to contend a bit. The cream will always rise to the top eventually, but it makes it a lot more interesting and doesn't just give the usual top guns an easy Sunday ride.

[OldSchool+]

Huh, seems odd to have moved away from it then...

Here are the only reasons I can come up with:

>The tracks are trying to emulate parts of Cup racing to promote "professionalism". Recently, I saw two mods at a time half a lap apart qualifying at Showtime, for instance.

>It started at "big" Tampa-200 style events, and now that, say, late models only run at a given track every month or so, all events are then promoted as "big" events.

>The big money/big motor guys lobbied for it.

[scottgarrity07]

A handicap promotes BOTH gates It gives more guys towards the middle and rear who are still fast but not fast enough to catch someone who runs away with a race from the pole, a chance to contend a bit. The cream will always rise to the top eventually, but it makes it a lot more interesting and doesn't just give the usual top guns an easy Sunday ride.

Well said, Phil. I agree it should help improve traffic at BOTH gates. The only guys who wouldn't like this should (understandably) be the guys who win A LOT. And, all kidding aside, not handicapping is probably a major reason for the racing being much cleaner here than there.

[Phil Jacques]

Huh, seems odd to have moved away from it then...

Here are the only reasons I can come up with:

>The tracks are trying to emulate parts of Cup racing to promote "professionalism". Recently, I saw two mods at a time half a lap apart qualifying at Showtime, for instance.

>It started at "big" Tampa-200 style events, and now that, say, late models only run at a given track every month or so, all events are then promoted as "big" events.

>The big money/big motor guys lobbied for it.

If they are trying to emulate cup series for some reason they just need to STOP. Go back to your roots with handicap systems etc. Don't try to emulate the cup series in any way shape or form. OS, do me a favor this weekend, if you attend a track, just observe and tell me how many people you see wearing NASCAR related memorabilia now, compared to say 1999 when NASCAR was about at its peak. I promise you will notice very few. Honesty other than an occasional Dale Sr shirt, all you see here now is local driver shirts. Even in the stands. There is a HUGE disconnect right now between what we do, and the top series of NASCAR. HUGE! And that is a BIG problem for us.

Let me ask you something on a bit of a different topic that I grew curious about this weekend, do they do any kind of on the fly crowd participation stuff in the event of a red flag? Something to keep the crowd amped up and occupied so they don't get bored and want to leave? This is a serious question. Saturday night at Waterford there was a flip... Now, any time a car gets upside down it's an instant red flag. Unfortunately, the ambulance clipped the new (narrower) pit gate and broke the weld on the lock tab for the gate and ripped it off, so in order to continue the show it was about a 25 minute repair so all in all there was about a 30-35 minute red flag. I saw and heard something I had never seen before in my life at ANY track... The new Promoter and new Manager of the Waterford Speedbowl out on the front walk in front of the grandstands asking all the little kids who their favorite drivers were over the PA system. When a kid would say who, the crowd would cheer. They were also handing out free tshirts and such as a kind of hold-over to see which sections of the stands could be the loudest. It was so loud, we could hear them in the pits behind the backstretch! They did this twice during the night as a legends driver got stuffed hard and broke his ankle and had to be transported so the show had to go on hold until another ambulance arrived. But it was the same result. Fan participation and interaction to keep people pumped up. It was definitely something I can not ever remember seeing at an oval and something I believe should be done EVERYWHERE now. Speaking to some of my friends who were on track in their cars during the red flag, they said hearing the crowd get pumped, pumped them up and made them go at it even harder afterwards. Keep in mind, we had about 80-85% full grandstands once feature time rolled around but DO any tracks down there do this? I am very curious.

[scottgarrity07]

If they are trying to emulate cup series for some reason they just need to STOP. Go back to your roots with handicap systems etc. Don't try to emulate the cup series in any way shape or form. OS, do me a favor this weekend, if you attend a track, just observe and tell me how many people you see wearing NASCAR related memorabilia now, compared to say 1999 when NASCAR was about at its peak. I promise you will notice very few. Honesty other than an occasional Dale Sr shirt, all you see here now is local driver shirts. Even in the stands. There is a HUGE disconnect right now between what we do, and the top series of NASCAR. HUGE! And that is a BIG problem for us.

Let me ask you something on a bit of a different topic that I grew curious about this weekend, do they do any kind of on the fly crowd participation stuff in the event of a red flag? Something to keep the crowd amped up and occupied so they don't get bored and want to leave? This is a serious question. Saturday night at Waterford there was a flip... Now, any time a car gets upside down it's an instant red flag. Unfortunately, the ambulance clipped the new (narrower) pit gate and broke the weld on the lock tab for the gate and ripped it off, so in order to continue the show it was about a 25 minute repair so all in all there was about a 30-35 minute red flag. I saw and heard something I had never seen before in my life at ANY track... The new Promoter and new Manager of the Waterford Speedbowl out on the front walk in front of the grandstands asking all the little kids who their favorite drivers were over the PA system. When a kid would say who, the crowd would cheer. They were also handing out free tshirts and such as a kind of hold-over to see which sections of the stands could be the loudest. It was so loud, we could hear them in the pits behind the backstretch! They did this twice during the night as a legends driver got stuffed hard and broke his ankle and had to be transported so the show had to go on hold until another ambulance arrived. But it was the same result. Fan participation and interaction to keep people pumped up. It was definitely something I can not ever remember seeing at an oval and something I believe should be done EVERYWHERE now. Speaking to some of my friends who were on track in their cars during the red flag, they said hearing the crowd get pumped, pumped them up and made them go at it even harder afterwards. Keep in mind, we had about 80-85% full grandstands once feature time rolled around but DO any tracks down there do this? I am very curious.

STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD, BEEEOTCH!

[Phil Jacques]

STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD, BEEEOTCH!

SHHHH!!!! I just asked a question lol

[OldSchool+]

Threadjacquer--They all wear camo down in these here parts (Iffin' I can remember I will let you know).

Now back to the inverted start thing.

[Phil Jacques]

Threadjacquer--They all wear camo down in these here parts (Iffin' I can remember I will let you know).

Now back to the inverted start thing.

Are you talking a complete inverted start? That turns into disaster. You can't put the slowest of the slow at the front. Usually here they handicap the first 12-14 cars. Not a knock, but it would have to be adjusted for field sizes down there but it can work. It could be done by points earned over the past 3 consecutive races, money earned over that same time period, or another system. By doing it that way, new cars or guys who didn't make the required starts to be eligible start in the rear and with there being a cutoff for it, it can also keep the stragglers from starting up front. There can also be a stipulation put in place by the tracks where if you are unable to run within say, a half second or so of the fastest practice time, you must relinquish your handicap position (just an example) to keep the really slow guys from getting run over by accident.

[OldSchool+]

Yep, yep...it would work well with the runwhatchabrung bracket thing too.

What was Scott talking about again...?

[Phil Jacques]

Yep, yep...it would work well with the runwhatchabrung bracket thing too.

What was Scott talking about again...?

2 things I know for certain...

Completely inverted starts are ALWAYS a disaster

Bracket style racing failed at one of the best little short tracks in this country (Rockford). If it didn't work there, it WON'T work anywhere.

If you want to start playing with pulling pills for redraws or top part of the field inverts, that is cool cause it's essentially a random handicap. But inverting an entire field is going to just be a shitshow from the start.

[scottgarrity07]

2 things I know for certain...

Completely inverted starts are ALWAYS a disaster

Bracket style racing failed at one of the best little short tracks in this country (Rockford). If it didn't work there, it WON'T work anywhere.

If you want to start playing with pulling pills for redraws or top part of the field inverts, that is cool cause it's essentially a random handicap. But inverting an entire field is going to just be a shitshow from the start.

I agree, nothing would make me quit racing EXCEPT forcing me to "bracket race".

They pull pills now to shuffle the front. I ain't enough.

[Phil Jacques]

They pull pills now to shuffle the front. I ain't enough.

Need more than 8 cars... A NSS Sportsman field should have pills up to about #14 with the way they are pulling cars. THAT would work.