What happened at Showtime last nite

[OldSchool+]

2700 lbs. ACT with a ACT approved Seal 603 Chevy Motor
•
2725 lbs ACT with a ACT approved Seal 347jr Ford Motor
•
2700 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed 604 crate engine (Nats, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)
•
2700 lbs. GSPSS Spec Motor
(Must be sealed by Jack’s Competition Engines)
•
2775 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed Ford 3 47SR Crate Engine. (Nat’s, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)
•
2750 lbs. Cam Change 604 (must have all GM seals or a Nat’s, Butler, or RPM Seal indicated with a CC on the seal in Place)
•
2775 lbs. Steel Head 4412 Engine (add 25 lbs. for Roller Cam)
•
Non -sealed 604 may be approved, contact GSPSS BEFORE event.
Any Non Sealed engine will carry a minimum of a 25lb penalty

Now that will simplify things, and no one will need to spend money, and none of those combinations will have an advantage...

[scottgarrity07]

I'm fine with calling them Late Model Sportman but taking a division that is having a resurgence like Sportsman and changing them is ludicrous and self destructive. I was ok with allowing a provision to allow Sportsman to compete in some kind of combined Late Model deal like Bobby proposed. I thought a lightened up Sportsman with more left side could compete with detuned LM's. Someone smarter than me quickly pointed out that you could never make a Sportsman that light and still get the big left side weight numbers. It's physically impossible. Old School, you yourself said the Sportsman race at NSS was the best race you had seen there in years. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Fix the other classes. Don't screw with Sportsman. There's a formula with us that is making affordable AND competitive racing right now.

The 650/450 Hoosiers are a little faster than the R750 tires. That's why most guys feel if you can run them you have an edge. The thing that makes the R750 "better" is that they have only slightly less grip than the old tires but last 3 times longer. I agree with Patrick that the rules differences between Showtime and everywhere else are keeping the cars away from Showtime. My car would need shocks, rims and tires to be legal there. How Yoho interprets his own rules is sketchy also when it comes to Sportsman. In addition the tiered payout based on car count keeps cars away too. I really don't care about Yoho or his 3 ring circus but his rules also hurt the car counts at Desoto by making guys have to have different tires, shocks and rims to feel competitive at both places. As a result some guys run one place or the other. That sucks because the tracks are not a far distance from one another and both could benefit from uniform rules (and enforcement).

[OldSchool+]

"Old School, you yourself said the Sportsman race at NSS was the best race you had seen there in years. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Fix the other classes. Don't screw with Sportsman. There's a formula with us that is making affordable AND competitive racing right now."--Scott

Feel like I am being misunderstood, here. The Sportsman thing is working, and is coming on stronger all the time, while the late model races are slimmer in number and in car count than they have been.

So why not promote the Sportsman, make them the top class, and call them late models?

signed--Dumb AND Ludicrous. Maybe I can be stupid with a weight break--the morning is young.

[Phil Jacques]

2700 lbs. ACT with a ACT approved Seal 603 Chevy Motor
•
2725 lbs ACT with a ACT approved Seal 347jr Ford Motor
•
2700 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed 604 crate engine (Nats, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)
•
2700 lbs. GSPSS Spec Motor
(Must be sealed by Jack’s Competition Engines)
•
2775 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed Ford 3 47SR Crate Engine. (Nat’s, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)
•
2750 lbs. Cam Change 604 (must have all GM seals or a Nat’s, Butler, or RPM Seal indicated with a CC on the seal in Place)
•
2775 lbs. Steel Head 4412 Engine (add 25 lbs. for Roller Cam)
•
Non -sealed 604 may be approved, contact GSPSS BEFORE event.
Any Non Sealed engine will carry a minimum of a 25lb penalty

Now that will simplify things, and no one will need to spend money, and none of those combinations will have an advantage...

I have personally watched every combination here win at some point in the past 3 years. I don't want to hear your sarcasm. This series has found a formula that works from top to bottom and it provides multiple options to allow people to run if they want.

[OldSchool+]

You know, at the end of the day, it is up to the promoters.

Some tracks decided to run the grooved tire, and some racers are happy and some are not. The promoter's decision, no doubt, was based on expected higher car count by mid season 2015.

As mentioned, the tracks and rules have allowed the situation to get where it is today, and will move forward in whatever fashion they think is best.

My suggestions are simply a starting point and intended to be thought provoking and helpful for the sport at all levels.

Whether you like them or not, it is up to the tracks to weigh their possibilities.

[scottgarrity07]

"Old School, you yourself said the Sportsman race at NSS was the best race you had seen there in years. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Fix the other classes. Don't screw with Sportsman. There's a formula with us that is making affordable AND competitive racing right now."--Scott

Feel like I am being misunderstood, here. The Sportsman thing is working, and is coming on stronger all the time, while the late model races are slimmer in number and in car count than they have been.

So why not promote the Sportsman, make them the top class, and call them late models?

signed--Dumb AND Ludicrous. Maybe I can be stupid with a weight break--the morning is young.

I never said dumb and it's only ludicrous if you do it! I'll leave the salty language and snarky retort to by buddy Phil!

[Phil Jacques]

Here is the biggest thing the tracks (around the country) seem to forget sometimes... Without us, there is no them. They need to take a step back and realize that in a lot of places, the reason racing is getting to where it is, is because of the tracks. They push us away with ridiculous rules, unfair or non existent tech (to keep it fair) and overall poor treatment. It's an epidemic right now cause most of these guys just want to make a quick buck. There are few in this country that are truly there for the racing it seems anymore and that's sad.

[OldSchool+]

And without the fans--same same.

We are all on the same page here, Phil is just in denial.

[Phil Jacques]

And without the fans--same same.

We are all on the same page here, Phil is just in denial.

I'm not in denial at all. If you mean something, say what you mean.

[Patrick Thomas 25]

Bobby, There is no way to get one of our Sportsman cars with a stock camaro front clip down to the weight I have seen suggested, that you had in the rules at CCMP. These are heavier cars with less engine set back, if you merely take the lead off to lighten them up, you lose all your rear weight, and struggle to get 56% left side weight. In my case "fat driver" there is not even a chance to get the car down to the minimum weight you have listed in the affordable late model post. Plus I am sure you would never allow the outlaw style body, which is what's on a growing majority of Sportsman cars. Bobby I will call you later today.

OWM53, as you probably remember the 650/450 tire falls off rapidly, if I had a set of 1 race old 650/450s and I bolted on another set of 650/450s to go qualify, my car would pick up .5-.7 tenths of a second a lap. That is against 1 race old tires. That means to be competitive you have to purchase tires at any of the big races, that require qualifying for your starting position, which is why they only got 5 cars.

Patrick Thomas 25

[Benny The Mule]

What i will add to this conversation is LM should be just that. 1 class, not multiple. Sportsman are a perfect slightly lower class than LM and much more affordable while producing some great racing. continue to allow the outlaw bodies, every car looks different and that adds appeal.

[OldSchool+]

Patrick is of course correct.

Therefore the other car's weight needs to go up to the Sportsman level.

[Phil Jacques]

Patrick is of course correct.

Therefore the other car's weight needs to go up to the Sportsman level.

leave the sportsman division intact as is. Don't start mixing other cars that weren't originally sportsman in. It will not be healthy for the division in the long run.

[OldSchool+]

Sez you.

And I respect your opinion and your right to say it.

But you see, neither your opinion nor mine really matters. I doubt anything at all will happen, but as mentioned, it is up to the track owners, promoters, those that determine what is "legal", what will create a good field, what is cost effective for them, and what will be acceptable to the fans and competitors.

[Phil Jacques]

Sez you.

And I respect your opinion and your right to say it.

But you see, neither your opinion nor mine really matters. I doubt anything at all will happen, but as mentioned, it is up to the track owners, promoters, those that determine what is "legal", what will create a good field, what is cost effective for them, and what will be acceptable to the fans and competitors.

Sez the reality we are looking at.

If you bring a full tube, coilover, lightweight car in to compete against these big spring stock clip dinosaurs we call Sportsman, in the long run, a lot of guys will eventually start making changes and upgrading to be more like the lighter more modern PLM type car because who doesn't like shiny and new? I know I would. Even if the cars weight exactly the same, the lighter chassis has an advantage because you can place the weight better and more where you want it to get your front and rear percentages and corner weights exactly where you want where you might have to sacrifice a little bit with the sportsman, not to mention the suspension differences. There are so many little things that you as a fan are not thinking of where me as an owner/driver and someone who has worked on full tube, stock clip and full stock frame cars for a number of years now I have a much different and more technical perspective than "lets make them the same and run at the same time" It's not even close to that easy. The cars are 1000 miles apart.

It's not an opinion, it's absolute fact and reality.