Is OSW *done* now...?

[Matt Albee]

Uh, no. That doesn't work in oval racing. Just no.

If you don't mind me asking, which oval track are you referring to that tried this and found it didn't work?

[scott bertram]

although I admire the thought process, I don't think it would be very effective either. drag racing is different, straight line/exact same distance every pass. oval track has way too many variables for this to work. for one it is more of an endurance race vs. a single pass, lap times can vary extremely in a 35+ lap feature. its quite a difference in times depending on where you run on the track, how much air pressure is built up during the race, etc .etc. some set ups will get faster with no cautions some the opposite. some guys qualify for shit but excel in a race. I think the best solution is a pill draw. its simple/ fast/and effective, but would need to be done on the front stretch in front of the drivers so select favorites don't get "lucky" and get the pole every weekend.

[luke81]

If you don't mind me asking, which oval track are you referring to that tried this and found it didn't work?

Thankfully, none because nobody would show up.
DQ'ing me for an entire race because i went faster on one lap? No. The object of racing is to go faster. It works in drag racing because each run lasts a few seconds, then they're done.
20 laps into a race with varying track conditions, tire conditions, fuel load, mud load(on dirt), etc...and you want me to be 100% sure I dont have a good lap and go .2 faster? No thanks, I'll keep my car at home when they try that one!

Out of the box thinking is good...so hey, nothing wrong with having a crazy idea...but when was the last time you made a lap?

[andre]

You want a simple simple system, as simple as it gets, here's one:

For the heat races, take the point standing, flip it over and cut in how many heat races you want. So in whatever heat races, the fast cars come from the back. If a new drive shows up, to the back of one of the heat.

Feature: Take last week feature, invert it and there is your line up for tonight feature. Newcomer ...to the back.

I have use this system for years, it works fine. In fact, it is still in use today at differents tracks up this way.

Everybody know where they will start tonight B4 the show starts. You can arrive at the track(the officials) with all your line up ready. Just check out the m.i.a. and add the newcomers.

[Matt Albee]

Thankfully, none because nobody would show up.
DQ'ing me for an entire race because i went faster on one lap? No. The object of racing is to go faster. It works in drag racing because each run lasts a few seconds, then they're done.
20 laps into a race with varying track conditions, tire conditions, fuel load, mud load(on dirt), etc...and you want me to be 100% sure I dont have a good lap and go .2 faster? No thanks, I'll keep my car at home when they try that one!

Out of the box thinking is good...so hey, nothing wrong with having a crazy idea...but when was the last time you made a lap?

So your answer is you don't have any idea. Okay. First of all, the conditions for drag racing vary just as much as they do for stock cars. But the drag racers are pretty good at determining what their car will run each pass. In fact, oval track racing would be a piece of cake for this system because the races aren't determined by a thousandth of a second or less.
But i'll lay it out for you again. Let's pretend you're a racer. You qualify at a 14.50. You know that you got a pretty good lap in and probably couldn't go much faster than that. So your time for the night is a 14.50. If you're caught going 2 tenths ( or whatever amount is determined by the rules ) quicker than that during a race, you're DQd from that race and the time they caught you at is your new qualifying time.
Now of course if you were completely out of shape during your qualifying laps, or you got back to the pits and found a p-lug wire had fallen off, or a tire was going soft, you have two options. You can re-qualify but if you don't improve your time by a certain amount you are stuck with the original time. Your other option is to start at the rear of the heat race you should be in and your fastest lap during that race is your time for the night. Does any racer often go faster than 2 tenths quicker than they qualified if they got a good lap in. No, they don't.
That's how you prevent sand bagging. But I haven't figured out how to prevent self serving racers from keeping the status quo while driving spectators away. Any thoughts on that.

[Matt Albee]

You want a simple simple system, as simple as it gets, here's one:

For the heat races, take the point standing, flip it over and cut in how many heat races you want. So in whatever heat races, the fast cars come from the back. If a new drive shows up, to the back of one of the heat.

Feature: Take last week feature, invert it and there is your line up for tonight feature. Newcomer ...to the back.

I have use this system for years, it works fine. In fact, it is still in use today at differents tracks up this way.

Everybody know where they will start tonight B4 the show starts. You can arrive at the track(the officials) with all your line up ready. Just check out the m.i.a. and add the newcomers.

That's a good system, and it's been used in a number of forms over the years with great success. Problem is, it's geared toward the fans, it gives them a good show. And that means that some racers might have to change something. And that just doesn't seem to be in the cards for Florida. After all, oval track racing in Florida is just a slight tweak away from being huge again.

[luke81]

So you're answer is you don't have any idea. Okay. First of all, the conditions for drag racing vary just as much as they do for stock cars. But the drag racers are pretty good at determining what their car will run each pass. In fact, oval track racing would be a piece of cake for this system because the races aren't determined by a thousandth of a second or less.
But i'll lay it out for you again. Let's pretend you're a racer. You qualify at a 14.50. You know that you got a pretty good lap in and probably couldn't go much faster than that. So your time for the night is a 14.50. If you're caught going 2 tenths ( or whatever amount is determined by the rules ) quicker than that during a race, you're DQd from that race and the time they caught you at is your new qualifying time.
Now of course if you were completely out of shape during your qualifying laps, or you got back to the pits and found a p-lug wire had fallen off, or a tire was going soft, you have two options. You can re-qualify but if you don't improve your time by a certain amount you are stuck with the original time. Your other option is to start at the rear of the heat race you should be in and your fastest lap during that race is your time for the night.
That's how you prevent sand bagging. But I haven't figured out how to prevent self serving racers from keeping the status quo while driving spectators away. Any thoughts on that.

I don't have to pretend I'm a racer, so I know how little sense this idea makes.
I'd strongly disagree about conditions of drag racing vs oval. Each pass is a few seconds, then they can readjust to the track before the next pass. So by that logic we would run each oval race one lap at a time, with an hour in between for adjustments to be sure we nail our dial in on each lap. Sounds super fan friendly to me.

[Matt Albee]

I don't have to pretend I'm a racer, so I know how little sense this idea makes.
I'd strongly disagree about conditions of drag racing vs oval. Each pass is a few seconds, then they can readjust to the track before the next pass. So by that logic we would run each oval race one lap at a time, with an hour in between for adjustments to be sure we nail our dial in on each lap. Sounds super fan friendly to me.

Yep, looks you've got figured out alright.

[andre]

If you're caught going 2 tenths ( or whatever amount is determined by the rules ) quicker than that during a race, you're DQd from that race and the time they caught you at is your new qualifying time.

If you are running transponders, you can rig the system so it will remove that lap and, instead of being disqualified, you are a lap down.

AND I agree 100% that a bracket system could work on oval and that would take care of all rules books. Who cares if a twin turbos 4 cylinders runs door to door with a V8 Super Late Model..... Bring them on and let's give them a show!!!!!!!!! It MIGHT draw some new generation race fans!!!!!

[Boneman]

Bracket system huh? What about a driver (like me) who is usually out to lunch in practice, and tends to improve as the night goes on? I'd get DQ'd every week. The difference on dirt would be even more dramatic where its not uncommon for everyone to pick it up by a few seconds as the night goes on.

I'm fine with running different cars together: I did it with my old mini stocks a few times, but this break-out idea and any sort of a penalty for going faster is not gonna fly with me.

[andre]

Bracket system huh? What about a driver (like me) who is usually out to lunch in practice, and tends to improve as the night goes on? I'd get DQ'd every week. The difference on dirt would be even more dramatic where its not uncommon for everyone to pick it up by a few seconds as the night goes on.

Those are small bugs that can be worked out with time. Nothing is perfect. But we have to remember that bracket racing has save the world of drag racing. On average, oval racing is not in good shape, being Florida or elsewhere. So any shot in the arm would be better than no shot at all. Is bracket racing the key? Who the f...k knows? But it's one key.

Not trying anything is a sure path toward total failure.

[Matt Albee]

Bracket system huh? What about a driver (like me) who is usually out to lunch in practice, and tends to improve as the night goes on? I'd get DQ'd every week. The difference on dirt would be even more dramatic where its not uncommon for everyone to pick it up by a few seconds as the night goes on.

I'm fine with running different cars together: I did it with my old mini stocks a few times, but this break-out idea and any sort of a penalty for going faster is not gonna fly with me.

How often do you turn race laps 2 or 3 tenths faster than you qualified on asphalt if you didn't have a problem during qualifying? If dirt cars do pick up several seconds, it's because the track changed dramatically. That wouldn't be a problem on asphalt. Besides, dirt tracks don't seem to be having problems drawing cars and crowds. Most of them anyway. But we're concerned with asphalt in this thread because that's the segment that's dying fast.
Over here, we're probably gonna do fine because Desoto has some top flight guys in charge for a change. But one or two tracks doing good isn't going to save the sport.

[Matt Albee]

And again, the penalty for going that much faster than your qualifying lap is only to discourage sand bagging. I can't see it being too much of a problem for most racers, only the few who always have to game the system.

[Boneman]

How often do you turn race laps 2 or 3 tenths faster than you qualified on asphalt

I rarely have to qualify, but I always pick up quite a bit from practice. Aside from learning how to drive, I also practice on old tires and we don't put the new ones on until the heat race. That is several tenths right there.

I've actually raced one night in the "bracket system" on pavement in a stock car. It was the famous "No Pits" taping at New Smyrna, and I can tell you it was chaos. At one point, I was leading, and backing off early to stay above the minimum time. I'm told I was running consistent laps, but I had no idea. More importantly, when it was time to race side by side, all thought of soft pedaling went out the window, so all of us who were racing hard for the lead were DQ'd. Kinda dumb! Keep thinking guys.

[scott bertram]

there are a lot of guys that don't qualify as good as they race, not just one or two. what you would have is a bunch of people DQed because they got faster as they got more comfortable, and got more traction. the variables from drag racing to oval are tremendous. we don't do burnouts and aren't allowed to use tire products to get traction on a cold time trial. and whoever thinks that times can not increase or decrease 2 tenths from a time trial to a feature race obviously hasn't done much needed homework.