Local homeboy does GREAT in NASCAR....

[roundtracker]

Go cart racing?

There is no comparison to go cart racing and car racing. Just because you can wheel a cart around a track doesn't mean a thing when you get behind the wheel of a race car!
Secondly you are not going to know a thing about setting up a race car!

[Boneman]

You have to adjust stagger, caster, camber, learn extensive tire prep, ackerman, weight distribution, chassis stiffness and who knows what else has appeared in the 8 years since I left karts. The only things missing are springs and shocks, but those are found on quarter midgets.

Karts and cars are much more alike than they are different. In fact, the one I drove (a Star Champ) was much more demanding than the cars I'd driven to that point.

A problem with karts is that so many of the kids get completely spoiled. They are used to having a few spare engines and 20 mounted tires in the truck. Lots of them get new chassis every year because the old ones "wear out".

[mr south 59]

Some of you may think that a gokart is no comparison to a car and those are the people that have not competed in Karting. Late models are like slow motion compared to Dustin's Unlimited Allstar kart. His kart has 56hp and is 365lbs with the driver. He recently set a new track record at Fruitland Part. 10.71 seconds. You don't have time to blink. It is not your yard kart. It has more hp per lb than his ASA car and way harder to set up. Boneman hit on a few of the setup things that these kid learn about at an early age. We even have tire dino's to check the spring rate of the tires now. So yes they do have springs. And each chassis has it's own spring rate also. These kids learn weight transfer and percentages, gearing and front end geometry and on and on. These are not toys.

Like I have said before. Dustin finished 3rd in his first late model start and WON in his third start. That didn't happen because he laid at home playing video games. It happened from years of learning setup and car control from KARTING.

Take a kid that has played racing video games until he is old enough to put in a lm. Say 14yr old. Put him I a few races with Wayne Anderson, Shawn Bass, Brandon Johnson and the rest of the guy's Dustin raced against in his first few races. Roundtracker. Do you think the kid stands a chance? Or do you think he would do much better if he had 9 yrs of karting under his belt?

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that if you raced a gokart you can wheel a lm. But I guarantee you that the stand-outs of karting can. If you have stood on the podium at a WKA National like Aric or even won WKA Nationals like Dustin than you can wheel a lm. Period.

Know lets take any lm driver that has never raced a kart. Any lm driver in the country. Lets put him or her up against Dustin or any other karting stand-out in the country in a gokart race. I will bet what ever you want that the karting guy wins.

[Osmosis Jones]

And vienna sausages taste as good a ballpark dog....

You didn't mention he set the track record at Fruitland Park too......I stand corrected....he's ready for an Indy car ride by all means....(that's a joke)

How many times does it have to be repeated? We KNOW these are not yard karts. We know that go-karting teaches a kid the basic eye to foot and hand control. It's a known fact that MOST racers have at one time or another raced a go-kart. Go-karts are a great place to get a child interested in racing at a young age.

WE GET IT!!!!!!

But to say that every kid racing go-karts is elbows deep in his machine and fully understands even some of the things that Boneman listed is asking us to believe in the Easter Bunny. You want to tell me that the father's who are living vicariously through their kids understand it, then I'm ready to listen. That doesn't mean a kid can't learn these things as he gets older and gains more and more experience. Like your son, for example. He is still in above his head, in my OPINION, but in this day and age he fits right into the pattern. Just minus the filthy, rich daddy part as you keep telling us you aren't. At least in his case he understands and has some knowledge of the car that he is driving so in his defense, maybe he is the needle in the haystack and I am wrong. But most of these 12 to 16 yr olds I see in the pits are screwing around in their $10,000 golf cart or playing on their PSP's with their buddies while the 10 guys on daddies payroll work on their Super Late Model.

"Like I have said before. Dustin finished 3rd in his first late model start and WON in his third start."

As I've seen asked before, where did he start, who was in the race, where was the race and how many cars were in the race? Stats can be made to sound incredible with the right spin on them. NASCAR is proof of that. I'm not trying to tear your son's performance down maybe as much as I think you keep over-emphasizing it. I've said it before, let his performance do the talking for him and he'll reap far larger benefits from it. He sounds like a really good kid but sometimes you just go overboard.
My son plays the guitar pretty damn good for a 12 year old who picked it up 3months ago and taught himself. I'm extremely proud of him as I can't play a note.
But he ain't ready to take over for Eddie Van Halen just yet.

"Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that if you raced a gokart you can wheel a lm. But I guarantee you that the stand-outs of karting can. If you have stood on the podium at a WKA National like Aric or even won WKA Nationals like Dustin than you can wheel a lm. Period."

Yes. Yes you are. That's exactly what you've been saying. And I'm sorry but my opinion is that you are wrong. Period. Like my header up there says, you can't compare the two. 56hp is still not 700. 365 lbs is not 2800lbs no matter how you slice it. Do I need to compare go-kart tires and wheels to 10" wide, 15" LM wheels? How about those body panels and a full roll cage that let you rub a little with that guy who wants to keep you behind him?
Yeah, they're like identical twins, aren't they.

"Know(sic) lets take any lm driver that has never raced a kart. Any lm driver in the country. Lets put him or her up against Dustin or any other karting stand-out in the country in a gokart race. I will bet what ever you want that the karting guy wins."

No....let's turn it around the way we are talking about and do it. Again, two different animals. How many WKA national championships are run on an oval track? As far I can tell with my very limited knowledge of WKA events, aren't the majority of them run on road courses? I'm just guessing here but most LM's don't make right hand turns. Remember, I said MOST. lol

To close, I never saw anyone say a bad thing about your son or his LM racing career and we all know by now that he had an above average career in the karts. What we have disagreed with you about is that just racing go-karts ain't all that and they are similar to a LM only by the fact that they have four wheels, a motor and a steering wheel. I'd throw in the pedals but most LM's have some type of clutch in them.



Speaking of karts, once again I was Rex and Jerry's b---- at the Lil 500 track after OSW rained out. Jerks.

[Winger]

Todd,
You asked what position the 12 year old started in. If I remember correctly, he started on the pole but earned the respect of one of the best racers in that area. He got a second last night. Here's the link to an interview with him.

http://indianadirtscoops.net/intervi...linterview.htm

[mr south 59]

OJ, I didn't come on here to debate. This isn't about Dustin. I used him as an example. Like I said. There are hundreds of them out there.

You speak volumes about how LITTLE you really know about national level kart.

But to say that every kid racing go-karts is elbows deep in his machine and fully understands even some of the things that Boneman listed is asking us to believe in the Easter Bunny.

I said the STAND-OUTS and I stand behind what I said. And if we said the Easter Bunny wasn't real you would try to convince us we were wrong about that too.

As I've seen asked before, where did he start, who was in the race, where was the race and how many cars were in the race?

First. We bought the car at 1 in the morning that Friday night. We owned it 12 hrs before he put it on the track. He never drove a car with a clutch. It had 160 lap old tires on it and we knew nothing about the car. It was 100 lapper at Citrus. 18 cars. Wayne Anderson, Shawn Bass, Dave Pletcher, Dalton Zehr, ect, ect. I'll send you the link to the story.

Yes. Yes you are. That's exactly what you've been saying. And I'm sorry but my opinion is that you are wrong. Period. Like my header up there says, you can't compare the two. 56hp is still not 700. 365 lbs is not 2800lbs no matter how you slice it. Do I need to compare go-kart tires and wheels to 10" wide, 15" LM wheels? How about those body panels and a full roll cage that let you rub a little with that guy who wants to keep you behind him?
Yeah, they're like identical twins, aren't they

Do you understand weight to horsepower ratios? Like I said before. A lm is like slow motion. I never said they were twins. I said the kart is harder to drive and setup than a lm.

How many WKA national championships are run on an oval track?

Again. You are speaking volumes of how LITTLE knowledge you realy have. My son has NEVER turned right in a WKA national. LOL Thats funny.

What we have disagreed with you about is that just racing go-karts ain't all that and they are similar to a LM only by the fact that they have four wheels, a motor and a steering wheel. I'd throw in the pedals but most LM's have some type of clutch in them.

With a statement like that it really shows again how LITTLE you really know about the national level of karting and late models.

OJ. A few questions for you. What late model and national kart races did you win that gives you such first hand info? Have you ever even raced anything? The lil 500 don't count.

You need to realize that if you are giving an opinion on something that YOU don't have first hand Knowledge of than YOU might be wrong. I have first hand Knowledge. Search some of the kids I listed above and if you think that karting didn't help them understand how to setup and race their lm's than you that you are in for a wakeup call.

[Osmosis Jones]

"OJ, I didn't come on here to debate."

I think ya did.


"You speak volumes about how LITTLE you really know about national level kart."


Pretty sure I said:
"How many WKA national championships are run on an oval track? As far I can tell with my very limited knowledge of WKA events, aren't the majority of them run on road courses? I'm just guessing here but most LM's don't make right hand turns."
I even checked the WKA site just to make sure but that was a legitimate question. Please enlighten me with your karting knowledge and let me know because on the WKA site it says they run on all kinds of tracks in several different classes and divisions. When you make a broad spectrum statements about WKA National events....ya know, nevermind. I'll admit I know nothing about the WKA or any of it's tracks. I retract the question because it has nothing to do with the original argument.


"We bought the car at 1 in the morning that Friday night. We owned it 12 hrs before he put it on the track. He never drove a car with a clutch. It had 160 lap old tires on it and we knew nothing about the car."

I actually meant people would ask about the race you said he WON but lets look at this one then. Is this really how you go racing? Buy a LM at 1 in the morning and race it the next day with worn out tires on it? Admittedly knowing nothing about the car or how to work a clutch? THIS level of preparation is what karting taught you? You say you sent your boy out with a full field of Late Models at Citrus like that? You just spoke VOLUMES to me about YOUR knowledge of racing in general.

"Do you understand weight to horsepower ratios? Like I said before. A lm is like slow motion."

So using that logic, just because some kid could steer a pickup truck down the quarter mile, then he should be ready for a Top Fuel Funny Car, right? At least the NHRA makes you show them you're ready for that much car.
Slow motion late models. Now that's funny.

"With a statement like that it really shows again how LITTLE you really know about the national level of karting and late models."

Um....yeah....we covered that one. You definitely know more about WKA national karting crap than I do. But I'm not the one who keeps touting my sons experience at that level as the basis for my every point. Believe me, I understand how much you consider karting to be the mecca for any aspiring racer. I get it. Really.
But I'll put what I know about Late Models up against you anytime.


"What late model and national kart races did you win that gives you such first hand info? Have you ever even raced anything?"

Not that it matters but here goes:

Asphalt: go-karts (but not the super sophisticated ones like ya'll), quarter midgets, T/Q midgets, ministocks, modified minis, Street Stocks, Sportsmans, Limited Late Models, Late Models and Sprint Cars. Presently working with a Truck team.
Dirt: motorcycles, Thundercars, Super Sixes, (my Dad's) Late Model and Sprint Cars.

I grew up doing this racing thing also, but I learned to walk before I tried to run. Sure I wanted to jump into a LM when I was 14 because I was sure I could do it. But my Dad had more common sense than most and made me wait and prove myself before he let me drive in the top level classes. I won some and lost a whole bunch over 20+ years of racing just about each and every weekend.
I built most of my own race cars plus a bunch for a host of others with the exception of the Sprinters. They belonged to other folks.
And that's about as much as you're gonna hear me talk about what I can or can't do with or in a race car because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Oh, I raced BMX bikes too when I was 11.

But I never won a WKA NAtional Title.

Now. I ask you. What does any of that matter?
Did I ask you what your qualifications were to spout off about karting? I couldn't care less because I'm not addressing what you've done. Only what you've posted. You could be the Easter Bunny for all I know. Post what you want and believe in. If people agree with you, you'll know soon enough.
And if they don't you'll find out even quicker.


I'm tired of arguing this karting point with you. You think you're right and I think I'm right. I'll just agree to disagree cuz there really isn't anything left to be said. I'm sure everyone else is tired of reading about it too.
I know I would be.

[carolwicks]

Selective reading...

if there are too many posts about a subject we don't HAVE to read them..we can skip... i personally enjoy reading more than one or two opinions... thats what the boards are for. the only thing that really annoys me is when posts are rude or aimed at making someone look stupid. everyone has an opinion... doesnt matter. as for Mr. South... he has every right to brag about Dustin. It is his son and he spends every minute possible with him. He is a good dad and a proud dad. nothing wrong with that!
we should all be more tolerant of each other. afterall ...this is all entertainment!!! it isnt life altering or threatening ....
Aric started 39th. and finished 22nd. GREAT? nope... but at least he finished and finished ahead of his start... (had to say that)... ;-) hope you all have a good week...and Saturday comes fast!
Much love
carolwicks aka OZ

[roundtracker]

Go Karts and Race Cars

They compare as much to me as synchronized swimming and competetive swimming. They are both done in water but that is about it!
My brothers son ran go-Karts at the national level also. I was never as impressed with them,(the Karts) or my nephew as was my brother. Then he put him straight to modifieds against my advice of starting in a street stock or something similar. It didn't last to long! I don't feel any kid should go from Karts to a Late Model or a modified. It is just plain wrong to me not to mention dangerous!
Over zealous fathers are everywhere and kids that age cannot make the decisions for themselves!
As far as late models being slow motion where is that?

[Boneman]

"I don't feel any kid should go from Karts to a Late Model or a modified."

Tell that to A.J. Currelli.

[mr south 59]

A.J. Currelli. Boneman's rigth. Another WKA "stand-out" and another prime example of the hundreds of kids out there like A.J. and the others listed above. That is the main reasons you can't say "any kid" when you say "I don't feel any kid should go from Karts to a Late Model or a modified." If you said "some kids" or "most kids" than you would be 100% correct. But Roundtracker, to include every kid in the world, in my opinion, that is 100% incorrect.

I've known A.J. and his dad way before he moved up. He could have moved up sooner. He had the talant, ability, and muturity.

Lets get back on topic. Aric had a car that was pushing like a dump truck the whole race. He came back from a lap down up in the top 15 and got dumped. Brought it home 22. About the same as JR. or Mark would have done with a piece of crap car like that. Not bad.

[mr south 59]

I still want to touch on the compairson thing.

Example 1
In a lm when you enter the corner and the car pushes the nose you get out of the throttle, maybe some more braking, wait until it rotates, get some bite and throttle out of the corner and hope to not get run over by a better handling car.

In a Kart when you enter the corner and the kart pushes the nose you get out of the throttle, maybe some more braking, wait until it rotates, get some bite and throttle out of the corner and hope to not get run over by a better handling kart.

Example 2
In a lm when you are coming up on slower cars you need to to judge your closing speed and time the slower cars so you don't catch they at a bad time so you don't lose much time getting around them.

In a Kart when you are coming up on slower karts you need to to judge your closing speed and time the slower karts so you don't catch they at a bad time so you don't lose much time getting around them.


Example 3
In a lm when the driver comes in and tells the crew chief that if we could get the car to rotate better in the middle of the corner the car will be fast. The cerw chief needs to get the car to rotate.

In a kart when the driver comes in and tells the crew chief that if we could get the kart to rotate better in the middle of the corner the kart will be fast. The cerw chief needs to get the to rotate.

Example 4
I an lm when you check the tach in the car and it telling you that the car needs more gear than you put more gear in the car.

I a kart when you check the tach on the kart and it telling you that the car needs more gear than you put more gear in the kart.

Example 5
In a lm when you take the green two wide and by the time the cars get to turn one and they are 4 wide the driver has to make spilt second decision on where to put his car.

In a kart when you take the green two wide and by the time the karts get to turn one and they are 4 wide the driver has to make spilt second decision on where to put his kart.


You own a late model. You sponsor how gives you $250,000 a year tells you he wants one of these 3 kid in the car this weekend for an exter $50,000 or on more money all year.

1) Xbox nascar 2007 national champion. Never been to a race track.

2)2007 AMA motorcross JR. national champion. Plays nascar 2008.

3)2007 WKA dirt JR. national champion. Never played video games.

Who do you pick? Be honest.

[Osmosis Jones]

Back on topic....

I watched the race from New Hampshire. That is to say I watched what I could stomach of it. If I mute the announcers it helps.
And I earnestlly watched the revolving running order at the top of the screen anxiously waiting for the #8 to progress farther forward than 34th place. He did on occasion pick up some spots by remaining on the track while the others pitted but it wouldn't take long before he made it back into the mid 30's. And again, at the end, the crew chief's decision to leave him on the track instead of pitting enabled him to bring home a respectable(cough,cough) 22nd place finish. That's Sprint Cup top dollar entertainment, right there!

As far as spotting his horrible push, I missed that. In fact, the only time I actually saw him on camera(other than when the leaders were just about to put him a lap down) was when the 9 car knocked him around. Oh and when he got sideways a few laps before. I think TNT showed it because it was about the only excitement of the whole race. Although watching two bozos like Busch and Montoya take each other out at the end was pretty funny.

Nothing impressive from the #8, again, I'm afraid. Without the rain I'm pretty sure he would have slipped back to the mid 30's during the last 21 laps.

At least then we might have seen someone doing some passing.

[Todd McCreary]

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that if you raced a gokart you can wheel a lm. But I guarantee you that the stand-outs of karting can.

no, they can't.

you keep saying "they've got great car control", and we keep answering back "that's not even half the equation". you aren't connecting with the fact that there's a great deal more to circle track racing than vehicle control.

is car control a prerequisite to success on the track? certainly. once you've got that down you're ready to start working on many, many things that you don't even know exist.

i'll give you two examples real quick:
1: Logan Ruffin - 13yo, he was here for the Jan. Lakeland race and Speedweeks at NSS.
he's got good speed and he's fairly aggressive. but he's so ignorant ( not stupid, ignorant ) he's not even capable of bringing the field to the start of the race from the pole. if the race director hadn't called back two perfectly good starts and then forced a single file start for the third try he'd probably have had his candy taken away by the guy on the outside. he's got a lot of other weaknesses. can he learn? i dunno, you'd hope so. bringing the field to the green isn't exactly rocket science. yeah, he got a win ... from the pole. what happens if we do a full field invert ( you know, put on a show for the fans instead of a parade ) and he has to prove that he can actually deal with other drivers? he wrecked out at Lakeland when he had to start deep in the field. is that what's going to happen when he has to deal with traffic? two races isn't enough for me to make a serious judgment about that.

but he was given more PA time than any other driver in his class.

can i get any takers on a bet as to whether or not Ruffin ran karts before he got his late model ride?




2: Scott Speed in the Craftsman Truck race at Texas
i don't care how valuable you think karting experience is it's worthless compared to years spent in Champ and F1 cars. Scott Speed has that experience and he's not prepared to race a car with fenders on it.


check this video out: http://www.nascar.com/video/truck/20...x.four.nascar/
ignore that Scott actually caused the incident in the first place, check out his car control. he never panics, he never locks up the brakes, he took every possible opportunity he had and he used every inch of pavement available to not only save his truck but possibly some peoples lives as well. a spectacular example of car control. that's certainly the best that anyone in NASCAR has seen since Jimmy Johnson spun the length of the front stretch in qualifying at Martinsville(?) and never touched anything.

but then he follows it up with this:
http://www.nascar.com/video/truck/20...x.five.nascar/
you don't dive bomb a car at the last possible second on corner entry.
you don't dive bomb a car at the last possible second when he's two wide.
you don't dive bomb a car at the last possible second when he's just got done beating the living hell out of the car beside him in the previous corner.

you don't know if one these guys will:
lose a tire
have a wheel fall off
have one end of the suspension so bent that he can't get around the corner
be PO'd and run into each other again
etc

the correct answer in this situation is to back the corner up so you can pick the throttle up as early as possible to slingshot these two on the next straight and probably run a high entry/line so you can run a late apex ( enter the straight low ) and have a better chance of avoiding any wreck that might happen. ( and yes, all of the above was what i was thinking on my first real time viewing of the live race )

i don't care if your karting whiz kids can put their LF tire on the edge of a dime in the corner, that control means nothing if you don't know what to do with it.

i'm not much impressed by Speed's antics in victory lane but i like his attitude in interviews. he understands that he has a great deal to learn ( can you imagine that? a man who has raced in F1 knows that he is unskilled at this game ) even if he doesn't understand all of the skill sets he still needs to pick up.


read this essay:
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000172.html

do you understand how this applies to a circle track driver? several years ago ( age may have taken too much of a toll on his reflexes the last couple of years ) Steve Kinser didn't always have the fastest car and may not have even had the best car control. but god damn, was he ever inside everybody else's decision loop. that's how and why Kinser would murder everyone else in traffic. it was some of the best damn racing you could ever hope to see. anywhere. anytime.

and even this is only one skill area that Speed needs to learn or improve, there are more.



A.J. Currelli. Boneman's rigth. Another WKA "stand-out" and another prime example of the hundreds of kids out there

one. out of the ( and i agree with you here ) hundreds ( thousands? )who will wash out and never have anything to do with racing again once they figure out girls / boys / beer / that they're going to have to foot their own bill for the rest of their life because now that they're 20 and not female no major sponsor is interested in them.

and seriously, are you going to tell me that spending a single season in Super / Street Stock would have crippled his career?





You sponsor how gives you $250,000 a year tells you he wants one of these 3 kid in the car

yep, that's the problem right there. sponsors and rich parents who want kids and not talent in these cars.

don't try to game us, they want the children in the cars for the marketing angle, not because the kids are ready for it. "talent" doesn't enter into it at all.

Ricky Carmichael ( marketing angle ) would have been a lot better off if he had run a Super Stock from the back of the field every week. even if he was doing it at the same time as the Late Model. but i'm sure the sponsor didn't want it that way and i'm sure there were plenty of people who were telling him that all of those guys in Street / Super Stocks are a bunch of no-driving nimrods ... otherwise they'd have a late model ride.

fact: even if every driver in Street / Super Stock is a nimrod there are still lessons that can be learned much more cheaply from them than in a Late Model. nimrod avoidance/control would be the most obvious skill he'd like to have. i'm sure that, just like RC, your kart driver of choice will have to deal with a Jimmy Spencer / Kyle Bush / Teddy Christopher / wreck-you-if-i-can-get-to-you driver of his own at every level of racing he competes in. that is, if he's ever good enough to be a threat to somebody like that. if he's just going to be an also ran he won't need to worry about it.

[Osmosis Jones]

(snerklezzzxxx) <---sound of a stifled laugh....

As the big dude in Trading Places would say:

"Yeah!"

Man, and I thought I could write novels.....