What would be a better fan draw ?

[zerofor]

Late models that are a couple seconds slower per lap,(basically sportsman)with a full field OR super lates we have now and only say,seven,eight or nine of them.Give me an opinion first as a paying fan and then as a racer.

[renopower]

sportsmen & trucks so far

I think the most common answer will be that people want to watch races with decent car counts & good competition ( not one or two cars with a chance to win ). Having said that, so far the most entertaining races we've enjoyed have been a couple FUPS sportsmen & truck races. I believe the preference in which class is prefered by people has most to do with who you know. Your going to find people rooting for those they know or have some connection with. So make sure more people get to know the racers & teams and I believe there'll be more fans at the races rooting on "their guys & gals".

[renopower]

p.s.

the fans can't tell the difference between a 17.2 second lap, 17.9 sec. lap, or maybe even 18.5 without a stopwatch. They want good competition, a good flowing show (only complaint with the above mentioned sportsmen & truck races - way too many cautions)and hopefully a surprise ending occassionally. each class should & hopefully will put on the best show it can.

[dd38]

I am doing this against my better judgement posting this. But the question was asked. I'm sure UREZTOPASS will critize me. Super Late Models with no Chip/Crate with RPM limits. Not that crap popping/farting when it does reach their RPM limit. At least Spec engines can turn a little more RPM as not to sound like a bunch of Taxi Cabs going around the track popping and farting at the end of the strightaway. Or open engine Modifieds. Some of the Sportsman (That is a class that has got out of hand) or Super Stocks (some of them sound a little racey). But BRRRRRRRRRRRR pop/fart, BRRRRRRRRRRRR, lap after lap, after lap. I have sat in the spectator stands and heard people say "What's wrong with that car" or "That car sounds sick". Fans want to hear the loud roar of some sort. Something that sounds like it has POWER! Even the Super Stocks sound better since they let them run headers now (plus that takes away a lot of controversy over trick or cheap offshore cast manifolds). Have at it EZ.

[Matt Albee]

Late models that are a couple seconds slower per lap,(basically sportsman)with a full field OR super lates we have now and only say,seven,eight or nine of them.Give me an opinion first as a paying fan and then as a racer.

That question is a lot tougher than you might think. I'd gladly pay to watch seven or eight of the best super lates in the south instead of a full field of sportsman cars. But put visiting NASCAR drivers into five or six sportsman or late models and that would be my pick. There's more to a good race than just car count, or just speed, or even both.

[andre]

Fan draw?
A well publicized main event fillled with state (province) star drivers driving top notch highest division cars.

You have to have the stars and cars. Stars in street stock won't do and no names in Super Late won't do either.

Like we say here, you need the butter, the butter dish and the money of both.

[ocalasp76]

I am doing this against my better judgement posting this. But the question was asked. I'm sure UREZTOPASS will critize me. Super Late Models with no Chip/Crate with RPM limits. Not that crap popping/farting when it does reach their RPM limit. At least Spec engines can turn a little more RPM as not to sound like a bunch of Taxi Cabs going around the track popping and farting at the end of the strightaway. Or open engine Modifieds. Some of the Sportsman (That is a class that has got out of hand) or Super Stocks (some of them sound a little racey). But BRRRRRRRRRRRR pop/fart, BRRRRRRRRRRRR, lap after lap, after lap. I have sat in the spectator stands and heard people say "What's wrong with that car" or "That car sounds sick". Fans want to hear the loud roar of some sort. Something that sounds like it has POWER! Even the Super Stocks sound better since they let them run headers now (plus that takes away a lot of controversy over trick or cheap offshore cast manifolds). Have at it EZ.

News Flash... EZ has been banned from this forum dd..
-JIM-

[Kenny Alderman]

I don't think the lap times have anything to do with it. Back in my day, the races were started by points with the highest four week average starting in the rear. Fans want to see passing by the hot shoes, not follow the leader. It is a good show, even if the fastest cars finish only fourth of fifth.

[ModelCarMan]

I don't think the lap times have anything to do with it. Back in my day, the races were started by points with the highest four week average starting in the rear. Fans want to see passing by the hot shoes, not follow the leader. It is a good show, even if the fastest cars finish only fourth of fifth.

I agree with you Kenny! When my dad own a latemodel on dirt back in the day we won 11 races one year and we would start 10th-12th every week. Lots of times we would finish in the top 3 but some times 4th-7th. Still it was a blast seeing our driver (John Gamble) race to the front with Buzzie, Will Cage, Sugar Bear and Bobby Alexander to name some.

[Old Sunshine Fan]

I don't think the lap times have anything to do with it. Back in my day, the races were started by points with the highest four week average starting in the rear. Fans want to see passing by the hot shoes, not follow the leader. It is a good show, even if the fastest cars finish only fourth of fifth.

Damn Kenny... "Back in your day"... lol...who the hell is talking about Stage Coach Racing... Seriously, you are right on!.... some track - some where needs to run under those "Old Days" rules... they need to grow a set, and tell the drivers/owners... "THIS IS THE WAY WE DO IT HERE"... fans want to see a "Race", not the same scene they can watch on the Causeway....again, (and this hurts to the bone...), Kenny you are right on!... OSF

[zerofor]

Okay let me slightly revamp the question

That question is a lot tougher than you might think. I'd gladly pay to watch seven or eight of the best super lates in the south instead of a full field of sportsman cars. But put visiting NASCAR drivers into five or six sportsman or late models and that would be my pick. There's more to a good race than just car count, or just speed, or even both.

And Matt you may have caught the essence of the question best,or at least summed it up best.But why i asked this question in the first place is this.In 30 plus years i have seen the late model lap times lowered by around 2 seconds per lap yet the car costs have at least quadrupled.Speed costs money but at what point is enough enough?Now for the novice fan they dont care about car counts or for that matter payouts or drivers names ( if theyre not gordon bush johnson etc.)they want action which mainly means wrecks.But to those of us who have been around awhile door handle to doorhandle,having to work through lapped traffic racing is what its all about.Its hard to get the lapped traffic part with only 8 cars.And while 8 good cars can run together for a lot of laps,more cars (even though they may be a little slower)usually equates to more action on the track.And i know back when i was racing the more cars the better i felt about my finish.Tops 5's or top 10's cant possibly mean as much to a guy racing 7or 8 other cars can it?

[victory10]

I really think it depends on what type of fan you would ask. I know 95% of the older fans who have been coming to races every weekend for 20+ years would say Late Models all the way. The newer fan say, last 5-10 years, truly would not know the difference in a sportsman or a late model or a street stock or a super stock. Those types of fans just want to see good racing throughout the field. That then brings up what both fans would consider good racing with the older fan wanting side by side, passing, hard racing from start to finish & they love to see a car come from the back part of the starting field to win. The newer fan wants the same thing BUT, they also want to see the wrecks and such.

I kinda wonder where some think the sportsman deal is out of hand? The only thing that could be considered out of hand compared to the northern type sportsman car would be the outlaw type bodies. Other than that, the sportsmans are so far behind the times with things like stock spindles, stock brakes & stock clutches that its not even funny. Kinda brings another question to mind about whether late models should have the outlaw bodies and sportsmans should have the stock appearing bodies. I can tell you up north the late model outlaw type bodies is not drawing near the amount of cars it used to. The template body sportsmans has a larger count then the outlaw lates & put on a much better show as well with more passing, side by side racing & several coming from deep in the pack. The outlaw lates are the same as lates down here but they have no restrictions on motors & run the outlaw type bodies. The sportsmans can use late model chassis, run the tubular camaro clip & the only difference in them versus the outlaws is steel head motors, wet sump system but no goofy restrictions compared to down here (flat top pistons, no roller cams, no porting & 2 barrel carbs). The other differences are wheel width, tire & body as they run template or stock appearing bodies.

To me, being down here for about 7 months now, there are several things that are done that wreck the chances for a good race. The biggest thing is the no qualifying & lining up the field based on either hot lap times or heat race results. Doing it that way makes for a pretty uneventful, boring race as the only race is between the 3-4 cars up front. The other thing that makes for bad racing & is a HUGE issue in the sportsman series is the constant caution after caution. They do that stupid madhouse restart so a guy can take someone out, go to the tail & then the very next caution he can go from 15th to 3rd by taking the outside lane. To me, the side by side restarts and that madhouse stuff makes for nothing but a junkyard every single race with nothing but caution after caution. To me, no matter what the class, the best way to have good, exciting racing is to qualify the field, line them up with a full inversion (slowest to the front & fastest at the back), do away with double file & madhouse restarts & if someone takes someone out & it is clearly intentional, give them 1 warning & the second time, park em for the race & if the first time is super blatent, then park em then. The amount of cautions would lower, the passing would be alot more throughout the field & you would have an awesome final 5 laps more times then not.

Finally, I was wanting nothing more than to see the series do well & be good for the sportsman class. The problem is there are several tracks who have no interest in having the series run at thier track. The issue is, you have drivers on both sides who will not support the other. There are several who are running the series will not go run any regular shows & then there are regular drivers at the tracks who have the series who will not run the series when its there because they do NOT have the same rules as the tracks & guys refuse nor can afford to change the things & adding 100 pounds is wrecking the chance to contend so they leave the car home. If ANY type of series is going to work & draw large amounts of cars, without effecting the regular shows at tracks, they need to make thier schedule based off every track around. They need to make thier rules so that no matter where you race at weekly, you are legal for the series without adding any weight or making any changes that are costly. They need to get rid of the entry fee & honor the memberships & its benefits at every track run. Finally, they need to get things resolved with whatever the issues are with tracks not interested in having them there & make it a real traveling series because while I know it is not any fault of anyone in the series with tracks pulling out after commiting, 2 tracks does not make it a series.

[Matt Albee]

And Matt you may have caught the essence of the question best,or at least summed it up best.But why i asked this question in the first place is this.In 30 plus years i have seen the late model lap times lowered by around 2 seconds per lap yet the car costs have at least quadrupled.Speed costs money but at what point is enough enough?Now for the novice fan they dont care about car counts or for that matter payouts or drivers names ( if theyre not gordon bush johnson etc.)they want action which mainly means wrecks.But to those of us who have been around awhile door handle to doorhandle,having to work through lapped traffic racing is what its all about.Its hard to get the lapped traffic part with only 8 cars.And while 8 good cars can run together for a lot of laps,more cars (even though they may be a little slower)usually equates to more action on the track.And i know back when i was racing the more cars the better i felt about my finish.Tops 5's or top 10's cant possibly mean as much to a guy racing 7or 8 other cars can it?

Nothing to argue with in that post. But how do we get there. And how do we satisfy the racer AND the spectators, they're looking for two completely different things.
The racers want the sport to cost as little as possible, think E-Mods, sportsmans, and skinny tires. And sad to say it, i think most of the current short track racers prefer to run spec rules and buy everything ( thereby everybody has the same equipment ) instead of building and innovating themselves.
The fans want the same thing race fans have always wanted. Speed, color, noise, competition, and of course wrecks. They want car bodies they can identify..... and identify with. They want loud race engine sound ( as opposed to loud street stock noise ) bright paint jobs and lettering, cars that handle like they're on rails instead of slipping and sliding through the corners, and they want to see new and different cars and engines. They're at the track because they know and love cars, they like to see different engine and car brands compete with each other.
I don't think outright lap times determine great racing, though I think you'd have trouble selling a show that went from 18 second laps to 28 second laps.

[Matt Albee]

And my solution to the problem is.......
Well it isn't really my solution, but I've seen it discussed on forums before and I agree with it.
First, open the racing to ALL body styles including imports, and to all fuel injected, computerized cars. Seeing pick ups competing with imports and newer bodied stock appearing cars would be a big plus over watching the same old 5 Star ABC body junk that really doesn't look like anything.
Open the tire rules to much wider tires, and slicks only. Lower classes can use take offs and save some money.
Use weight as an equalizer. A driver or type of engine/car starts dominating the racing, add 50 lbs to the car. If it still dominates, add another 50 lbs.
Use completely inverted starts for all races, Nothing gets the fans off the seats better than watching the fast guys work through traffic.

[steadysteve]

What I'd like to see

The problen with a lot of promoter's is they have no vision,or brains to offer shows that people would like to see.I remember as a kid,a lot of tracks would offer races of the best drivers from north and south of the Mason-Dixon line.

You'd have drivers like Dick Gregory and Jim Cushman fron Ohio,or Bob Senneker and Harold Fair ffrom Michigan,going against the best driverd fron Georgia or Alabana and Florida.You never see anything like that now.

Its a shame.A show like that would be fun to see.I know money is the issue.