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Old 02-11-2019, 09:29 AM
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Default (spoiler alert) 2019 Advance Auto Parts Clash (or Crash, if you prefer)

Warning #1: This video shows the finish of the Advance Auto Parts Clash that ran 2/10/19. Read no further if you have not seen the event, but intend to.

Warning #2: Darrell Waltrip is among the narrators in the following video. Do not watch if you find that offensive.

https://youtu.be/vjdUGvvKeU0?t=1

So, there it is. Jimmie was about six inches up on Paul Menard on what Jimmie correctly determined to be about the last chance to pass before the rain closed in.

Disclaimers:

>I am not a JJ fan.

>"Normally" (if there is such a thing in racing) I feel that a guy has to be about up to the middle of the driver's door in order to claim the position as "his" without being "dirty".

BUT, on the last lap all that goes out the window, and winning is paramount (my opinion only--Mark Martin, for instance, disagrees). And Menard was late blocking and was trying to protect his position with the side of his bumper. A losing proposition.

And the rest of the field went along for the typical, very expensive, and potentially dangerous ride at Daytona.

So, imo, Jimmie gets no demerits for this one.

Your thoughts? at will.

ps--Jacko, to your point, if NASCAR flattened the banks at "the super(?)speedways", the teams would require less cars and therefore have more sponsorship money available for other expenses!

But they won't, adding yet another nail in the coffin of their self-defeating practices.

Last edited by OldSchool+ : 02-11-2019 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:25 PM
luke81 luke81 is offline
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Racing for the win, in a race where second place means nothing at all....this is what's going to happen. I'm 100% ok with it.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:03 PM
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Nope,not ok with it.True Menard left him a little too much room,BUT forcing your way in and tearing up pretty much the entire field is NEVER ok and he should have had a line of guys in the winner's circle to beat that thought into him.The only reason it didn't happen is they all would have done the exact same thing.But it doesn't make it right or ok.Door handle establishes position but Menard was in the spin cycle before JJ got there.But paybacks a bitch!!!
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:22 PM
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04--You did notice that with the current no-bumping, no-pushing, no 2 car draft, no line of cars drafting, no-nuttin' restrictor-plate-contrived-racing...NOBODY could pass all day, correct?

So, Jimmie dropped back a little, killing Menard's momentum, and then ducked low carrying more speed.

Menard was late in sizing all that up, or he would have dropped back with him and then zigged low in defense, but given that he did not...

When Paul finally moved off the wall just after Jimmie got there, should Jimmie have lifted?

re: Payback? Agree, but then, Logano is the current Cup Champion & Big Mean E won seven of them, so...

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Old 02-11-2019, 06:44 PM
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I've been reading all the comments on how JJ did it intentionally blah blah blah on Twitter and I just laugh.

Anyone who understands the basics of how air can work, would understand what happened. Neither driver turned into each other. It was all the air. It was very simply the same effect on the sides of the cars, that the belly pan has. The air moving between the two cars accelerates much like wind between two buildings speeds up. The buildings are fixed objects and cannot move. The cars however, are not fixed and that air acceleration creates a low pressure point and sucks the cars together.

This video explains it well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZXqnyVY-bM
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:16 PM
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Agreed, grasshoppa.

But, they routinely use that effect to "sidedraft" whereby a car effectively stalls the other car and forwards their own position--a little.

And yet, they do that without crashing.

Somethin' happened on that there backstretch.

Jeffy indicated that Menard "came off the wall a little bit". I guess I agree with him.

IF the suction=crash phenomenon is "unavoidable" would it not be a lawsuit worthy liability to drivers and fans "caused" by NASCAR?
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:20 PM
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ps--I think the phenomenon is caused by a lack of air at speed, in effect, a low pressure area, in between the cars.

The higher pressure outside of two cars running next to each other "pushes" them together, but the low pressure is really what allows the sidedrafts and etc. to occur.

Last edited by OldSchool+ : 02-11-2019 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:52 AM
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I'll will say first that I don't like JJ. I really don't know why, it is just a gut feeling about the guy. I sense something strange about him. Maybe it is his greatness, I don't know. I will also say all things being equal, I pull for the Ford or Toyota. But after watching the video OS posted several times, I agree that it was air. Menard was already going sideways before JJ got there. Just proves again how stupid this racing is. I don't know that I suggested lowering the banks, but what I think would help is just flat slowing the cars down, to maybe a max of 180 mph. Then, I think they could race and pass.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:12 AM
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Ah, but how?

Plates are the real problem, and have led to all the other bump draft issues, which have led to 20oz radiators, and etc.

And 180 is still fast enough to have big crashes and fast enough for air to have an effect of sucking the cars together.

Joe--same question I sort of asked Phil: Clearly they can (usually) run together. And clearly a guy can run closer to the side of another car on occasion to slow him down and/or speed himself up. Why was that crash any different?

Last edited by OldSchool+ : 02-12-2019 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:48 AM
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I agree the plates are part of the problem, but so is aero. I am working this Speedweeks with the NASCAR Racing Experience giving rides. We run around there in packs of 5 or 6 cars at 160-165mph. No problem at all. My opinion is that they have reduced the drag on these cars som much, along with some weird side affects created by this, makes the cars very unstable. Bear in mind that in the Awesome Bill days, they went around there doing 210 mph laps, probably reaching 220+ on the chutes.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:03 AM
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Re: 220--and the reason they added plates?

To avoid a sport-losing-lawsuit due to a car getting into the stands.

Sideways, they look like airplane wings, and above 205 or so, flaps or not, they act like airplane wings.

And the only known way to reduce the speed is with plates, which cause the packs (that Awsome Beall did not have to deal with).

I still think that rev limiters may help (with off peak rpm throttle response) but would not eliminate the problem. They would still run in packs.

They have a chicane, that would do it. We will never know.

You see, NASCAR thinks the fans like the big crashes.

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Old 02-12-2019, 09:41 AM
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Using the bus stop would be cool!!! There are other ways to slow them, much smaller displacement, BIG blades, etc.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:08 AM
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smaller displacement sounds good, but it would lead to more rpm, read money.

F1 shows where this could go.

Big rear spoilers, or a blade around the nose (both of which have been tried) lead to pack racing and all that goes with it.

Chicane would lead to late braking passing attempts and subsequent crashes.

You know, they could widen up the apron on one end or the other--say three and four--and put a little bank on it, and then make ABOVE the double line "out of bounds". But that would amount to (correctly) admitting that their big track was good for 1959, not so much for 1989, even less appropriate for 2019.

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Old 02-12-2019, 10:09 AM
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Tony's tongue in cheek comments were and are hilarious:

https://youtu.be/8JZ0HcqqfqI

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Old 02-12-2019, 10:16 AM
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Tony was awesome. I heard Joe Gibbs say they have lost 5 cars already, and have not even gotten to the Twins.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:20 AM
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Gettin' pretty close to six...
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:11 AM
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One problem they could easily fix, and I thought they had but they haven't, is the cars yaw'd out to the left to get the spoiler out of the air. Some have it a lot and some have it a little but none of them are running the wheelbase square. I'd bet the 21 was yaw'd out to the max allowed, one reason it was fast, and so when the air pulled on him the wheelbase wanted to go that way too, not straight ahead like it would if the wheelbase was the same on both sides.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:18 AM
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Good point, Lurkin.

It seems inherently counterintuitive to let them do that.

And between the yaw and positive LF camber (another practice that could be easily mandated away), once a car heads to the right it is hard to get it back. Whether caused by
"air" or over-correction...

Let's see, I think this is the order of events:

1) The cars are too fast and aero unstable at high speed
2) Lets slow them down and create more problems with restrictor plates
3) NOW, lets allow them to run soft springs and unequal wheelbase to, um, get the rear spoiler out of the air.

4) So they are unstable?!?

NASCAR has complete control of the plates. At the very least the cars should be as stable as possible and then the plates sized appropriately to achieve the speed target they are after.

Some things are just hard to figger.

Last edited by OldSchool+ : 02-13-2019 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:50 AM
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Lurkin is right, and they just look stupid crab walking down the track. I feel the same way about the dirt late models now, with that damn lift bar setup or whatever the hell it is. I wouldn't run one just because they look ridiculous, and have no interest in watching them.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:51 AM
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Default And now...

The "It will never happen" department:
Joe, they could kill all of the following birds with one stone:

>Have better Racing
>Generate increased interest
>Eliminate plates
>Eliminate Bump Drafting
>Eliminate boring races
>Not have to modify the precious banking
And if IMSA is a partial clue, perhaps most importantly
>Add that ulta desirable european/austrailian/international flair!

By...running Charlotte-style roval races exclusively at Daytona, Talladega, Indy, and Pocono. Especially if...

"It will never happen pt II":

I would suggest there is room for significant improvement in infield/roadcourse design. Seems like currently they mostly narrow & flat (ie, cheap). There is no reason infield courses could not be permanent and dedicated, with short track-like banking, and short track-like straights in between the turns, complete with short track-like walls and SAFER barriers.

And, of course, if the track was exciting enough, they could have additional dedicated, pay-by-the-seat grandstands as well.


It seems affordable and do-able, yet impossible at the same time.

Last edited by OldSchool+ : 02-13-2019 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:10 AM
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Ha ha that's exactly what I call it, stupid crab walking. I disagree with the dirt lm stuff though. It's hard to dislike something like that when they're still racing side by side. Street stocks falling over to the right like that look stupid to me but not LM's.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:41 AM
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You certainly cannot argue with the racing on dirt, they put on a show, I just don't like how the cars look now.
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:13 AM
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Give it a shot, Joe. You might get a "rise" out of it.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...eUDuyswRhu-dM:

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Old Today, 08:06 AM
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Truck race was the same. A bunch of so called professionals weaving around like they're drunk, trying to go straight. smdh
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Old Today, 10:08 AM
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Lurkin, could you believe that mess?? I think there were 8 trucks running at the finish, and almost all of them had some damage. I guess I am wrong about lower speeds making better racing. I am beginning to believe it is the video game culture of these kids that are now making up the bulk of the drivers.
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Old Today, 01:25 PM
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It's de track, boss, de track

https://www.google.com/search?q=plea...RIGcO-0B1w2iM:

When we used to go go-cart "racing" on a short, greased oval our "rule" was--whoever got in front went a tick artificially slow and blocked. Result? bang bang bang two wide.

Man was it fun.

Same-same at restrictor plate races. They cannot get away from each other.

And Cup has about got them 3 feet apart with 30+ years of attacking the unsolvable problem and voila', it's either crashing or boring.

Those guys would look good on a short track--in fact, Mike Skinner (former truck driver) currently does look good at New Smyrna. But running with essentially go-cart governors at 180+ just produces predictable results.

They have got their series talent level pretty clearly laid out:

ARCA--maximum driver errors
Truck--slightly fewer errors
Xfinity--better still
Cup--sucks the least!

Yay.

"Daytona 500--NASCAR's biggest event of the year".

By NASCAR's measure, anyway...
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